We should stop the ultra leftism of condemning individuals for the role of the corporation. In all socialist revolutions of the past there were a fractioning of the military and police forces, with many of them (mostly soldiers, not exactly officers) joining the revolutionary side. Without this fractioning, revolution will never be possible, and no underground militia would ever be able to match professional soldiers if confrontation was needed.
Instead of simply treating all individuals as a single whole, we should do political and politicization work to bring out that fractioning.
and no underground militia would ever be able to match professional soldiers if confrontation was needed.
Calling American soldiers “Professional” for shitting their diapers in Iraq and Afghanistan is a stretch. Underground militas blew the American soldiers out of the water multiple times.
We should stop the ultra leftism of condemning individuals for the role of the corporation
So to actually tackle this instead of taking an “emotional” perspective
It’s not “ultra-leftism” to want the ghouls of the American empire to be tried and to not repeat the historical mistakes of America trying officials of Nazi Germany. Despite my hardline stance, I’ve had one combat-experienced veteran and another veteran actually show appeals to leftist ideologue. The thing is, they’re retired. If you want to be “a good veteran” then the correct stance to take is to immediately do whatever is in your immediate possibility to minimize the damage already done while you’re in service. Otherwise, most soldiers in service already have a sense of camaraderie and generally have the issues of alienation causes by capitalism alleviated only by a slight degree of collective service. You’re appealing to someone who took an oath, is junked up on propaganda and has likely had or serviced the “machine” that acted in violence towards people like us, foreign-born comrades and women/children. My experience is absolutely anecdotal, but what I said about who you’re appealing to isn’t.
Further more, there are plenty of us who have had horrible, abusive relationships with soldiers in family, etc. Beyond that, there are those of us on here who are direct victims of America and Isn’treals genocide? It is ultra-leftism and emotional to question recruiting the wolves to the flock? To question why we target these people in the first place when there’s way more valuable targets? To understand why some have a hesitancy or a disgust to the very idea?
Calling American soldiers “Professional” for shitting their diapers in Iraq and Afghanistan is a stretch. Underground militas blew the American soldiers out of the water multiple times.
I meant professional because that’s what they do for a living. They spend their day staying fit, drilling, maintaining weapons, and shooting. It does not mean they are better than an organization of trained people in asymmetrical warfare. Many people in Iraq and Afghanistan “militias” received training as professional soldiers once but then acted in irregular armies.
It’s not “ultra-leftism” to want the ghouls of the American empire to be tried and to not repeat the historical mistakes of America trying officials of Nazi Germany. Despite my hardline stance, I’ve had one combat-experienced veteran and another veteran actually show appeals to leftist ideologue. The thing is, they’re retired. If you want to be “a good veteran” then the correct stance to take is to immediately do whatever is in your immediate possibility to minimize the damage already done while you’re in service. Otherwise, most soldiers in service already have a sense of camaraderie and generally have the issues of alienation causes by capitalism alleviated only by a slight degree of collective service. You’re appealing to someone who took an oath, is junked up on propaganda and has likely had or serviced the “machine” that acted in violence towards people like us, foreign-born comrades and women/children. My experience is absolutely anecdotal, but what I said about who you’re appealing to isn’t.
I completely agree that the armed forces of any imperialist country is one of the most reactionary institutions. However, even so, there should be propaganda and agitation directed to them. If we think we cannot break their entrancement from ideology then we better lose hope of a revolution, because almost everyone in capitalist society is entranced with the dominant ideology. Let’s not forget that many working class leaders came from a military background. Luis Carlos Prestes, Carlos Lamarca, Hugo Chavez, Thomas Sankara, Ibrahim Traoré, Josip Broz Tito, among others.
Further more, there are plenty of us who have had horrible, abusive relationships with soldiers in family, etc. Beyond that, there are those of us on here who are direct victims of America and Isn’treals genocide? It is ultra-leftism and emotional to question recruiting the wolves to the flock? To question why we target these people in the first place when there’s way more valuable targets? To understand why some have a hesitancy or a disgust to the very idea?
Trust me, we have plenty of shitty Jarhead fathers in Brazil. I knew a guy who was embarrassed of taking his shirt off because it would reveal the scars from all the beatings he received from his soldier father. My grandfather was also one of them. Although he thankfully didn’t serve the army during the military dictatorship, he raised all his children like they were in a barrack. However, Marxist theory is not about workers being the most pure hearted and good people, it’s about convincing them that they are oppressed by a system. And fighting it is a necessity because of that opression, and not about any kind of moral superiority.
However, Marxist theory is not about workers being the most pure hearted and good people
Agreed up until this point. It has nothing to do with “morality/vibe checks”. It has everything to do with recognizing the threats and security issues that someone who has had service in the military. I also have to disagree with the comparison between soldiers in the periphery vs the Core.
Those in the periphery advance in class when they join the enforcer class; becoming closer with the colonial institutions that exploit their nation. In the core, 80 percent of those who join the military come from higher income brackets. They are actively giving up privilege, power and wealth to become a member of a core’s murderous enforcer class with global prestige. That does have relation to Marxist theory, in that I am objectively observing their class characteristics and how those are imposed over their material conditions and how to organize/recruit them. I mentioned why those reasons are important.
while it is true that veterans can be reformed and regretful for what they contributed to, american veterans, by and large, support american imperialism. they care more about themselves getting tossed aside by the government than the peoples, societies, and economies in the third world that they helped to destroy.
We should stop the ultra leftism of condemning individuals for the role of the corporation. In all socialist revolutions of the past there were a fractioning of the military and police forces, with many of them (mostly soldiers, not exactly officers) joining the revolutionary side. Without this fractioning, revolution will never be possible, and no underground militia would ever be able to match professional soldiers if confrontation was needed.
Instead of simply treating all individuals as a single whole, we should do political and politicization work to bring out that fractioning.
Calling American soldiers “Professional” for shitting their diapers in Iraq and Afghanistan is a stretch. Underground militas blew the American soldiers out of the water multiple times.
So to actually tackle this instead of taking an “emotional” perspective
It’s not “ultra-leftism” to want the ghouls of the American empire to be tried and to not repeat the historical mistakes of America trying officials of Nazi Germany. Despite my hardline stance, I’ve had one combat-experienced veteran and another veteran actually show appeals to leftist ideologue. The thing is, they’re retired. If you want to be “a good veteran” then the correct stance to take is to immediately do whatever is in your immediate possibility to minimize the damage already done while you’re in service. Otherwise, most soldiers in service already have a sense of camaraderie and generally have the issues of alienation causes by capitalism alleviated only by a slight degree of collective service. You’re appealing to someone who took an oath, is junked up on propaganda and has likely had or serviced the “machine” that acted in violence towards people like us, foreign-born comrades and women/children. My experience is absolutely anecdotal, but what I said about who you’re appealing to isn’t.
Further more, there are plenty of us who have had horrible, abusive relationships with soldiers in family, etc. Beyond that, there are those of us on here who are direct victims of America and Isn’treals genocide? It is ultra-leftism and emotional to question recruiting the wolves to the flock? To question why we target these people in the first place when there’s way more valuable targets? To understand why some have a hesitancy or a disgust to the very idea?
I meant professional because that’s what they do for a living. They spend their day staying fit, drilling, maintaining weapons, and shooting. It does not mean they are better than an organization of trained people in asymmetrical warfare. Many people in Iraq and Afghanistan “militias” received training as professional soldiers once but then acted in irregular armies.
I completely agree that the armed forces of any imperialist country is one of the most reactionary institutions. However, even so, there should be propaganda and agitation directed to them. If we think we cannot break their entrancement from ideology then we better lose hope of a revolution, because almost everyone in capitalist society is entranced with the dominant ideology. Let’s not forget that many working class leaders came from a military background. Luis Carlos Prestes, Carlos Lamarca, Hugo Chavez, Thomas Sankara, Ibrahim Traoré, Josip Broz Tito, among others.
Trust me, we have plenty of shitty Jarhead fathers in Brazil. I knew a guy who was embarrassed of taking his shirt off because it would reveal the scars from all the beatings he received from his soldier father. My grandfather was also one of them. Although he thankfully didn’t serve the army during the military dictatorship, he raised all his children like they were in a barrack. However, Marxist theory is not about workers being the most pure hearted and good people, it’s about convincing them that they are oppressed by a system. And fighting it is a necessity because of that opression, and not about any kind of moral superiority.
Agreed up until this point. It has nothing to do with “morality/vibe checks”. It has everything to do with recognizing the threats and security issues that someone who has had service in the military. I also have to disagree with the comparison between soldiers in the periphery vs the Core.
Those in the periphery advance in class when they join the enforcer class; becoming closer with the colonial institutions that exploit their nation. In the core, 80 percent of those who join the military come from higher income brackets. They are actively giving up privilege, power and wealth to become a member of a core’s murderous enforcer class with global prestige. That does have relation to Marxist theory, in that I am objectively observing their class characteristics and how those are imposed over their material conditions and how to organize/recruit them. I mentioned why those reasons are important.
Bowe Bergdahl? I really haven’t read anything outside Western MSM, hence the question.
I accept desertion as well. Randy Orton comes to mind, heh.
while it is true that veterans can be reformed and regretful for what they contributed to, american veterans, by and large, support american imperialism. they care more about themselves getting tossed aside by the government than the peoples, societies, and economies in the third world that they helped to destroy.