Sure. I don’t disagree with that. But the question is: do these synagogues not accurately represent Judaism if the overwhelming majority of Synagogues and Jewish religious institutions are Zionist? Because the OOP says they’re not and I got banned only for correcting them that they are.
Someone mentioned below the majority of Christians are Zionist I agree with them. Nobody has a problem pointing out that most Christians are Zionist. and most Christinian institutions are Zionist.
But for some reason when you point out the same thing for Jews, somehow that’s wishing death upon all Jews. In that case why wouldn’t the same go for Zionist Christians being in danger if someone pointed out how deep the Zionist movement is within the (especially Evangelical) church?
At the heart of every argument within the spectrum of Zionism lies the uncritically accepted belief that Jews are an eternally oppressed people and that antisemitism is a constant, rampant threat. The charge of antisemitism often functions as a thought-terminating cliché, deployed not only by staunch Zionists but even by well-meaning individuals who identify as pro-Palestine. Yet few pause to critically examine this assumption. What is the actual reality of Jewish oppression today, and how does contemporary antisemitism compare to the narrative so widely accepted?
By any objective measure, Jews are not a marginalized or oppressed group. Rather than facing structural or systemic oppression, they represent one of the most privileged demographics globally. The Jewish population is overwhelmingly concentrated in wealthy Western nations and their own ethnostate, societies that dominate the global imperial order. Within these power centers, Jewish communities consistently rank among the most affluent and highly educated groups, outperforming nearly all other demographics in measures of economic success and social mobility.
“As anti-Semitic barriers quickly fell away after World War II, Jews rose to preeminence in the United States. According to Lipset and Raab, per capita Jewish income is almost double that of non-Jews; sixteen of the forty wealthiest Americans are Jews; 40 percent of American Nobel Prize winners in science and economics are Jewish, as are 20 percent of professors at major universities; and 40 percent of partners in the leading law firms in New York and Washington. The list goes on. Far from constituting an obstacle to success, Jewish identity has become the crown of that success. Just as many Jews kept Israel at arm’s length when it constituted a liability and became born-again Zionists when it constituted an asset, so they kept their ethnic identity at arm’s length when it constituted a liability and became born-again Jews when it constituted an asset.” — Norman Finkelstein, The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering (2000)
But for some reason when you point out the same thing for Jews, somehow that’s wishing death upon all Jews. In that case why wouldn’t the same go for Zionist Christians being in danger if someone pointed out how deep the Zionist movement is within the (especially Evangelical) church?
Saying something like “An estimated 80-90% of Jews in modern time are also Zionists” with stats to back it up is perfectly fine to say, but it’s also worth acknowledging the fact that “10-20% of Jews are not Zionists”.
What you seem to be arguing is that, because Jews are majority Zionist, we should treat every Jewish person as though they are Zionist. The problematic part is in bold:
80-90% of Jews in modern time are Zionists. Zionism is the accurately representative of modern Judaism. Especially religious Judaism where virtually every present day synagogue is Zionist.
This is simply conflating Zionism with being Jewish as though they are the same thing. While the majority of Jews may well be Zionists (I don’t know whether the 80-90% figure is accurate or not, but let’s assume for the sake of argument it is), it’s still wrong imo to characterize all Jews as Zionists. Like another poster mentioned, there are still potentially millions of Jews who do not support Zionism, and/or who oppose Israel’s genocide of the Palestinians.
But the question is: do these synagogues not accurately represent Judaism if the overwhelming majority of Synagogues and Jewish religious institutions are Zionist?
No, they don’t - and you are making the same mistake again. Pro-Zionist Jewish synagogues cannot be said to represent Judaism as a whole, because not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Jews attend Temple. Why do you feel the need to stereotype all Jews, and all congregations as being the same? YDI.
Saying something like “An estimated 80-90% of Jews in modern time are also Zionists” with stats to back it up is perfectly fine to say, but it’s also worth acknowledging the fact that “10-20% of Jews are not Zionists”.
Yes that’s literally done by saying not 100% of Jews are Zionists but 80 to 90%. It’d be great if it was more. In fact most (especially European) Jews used to oppose Zionism until Zionist Jews worked together with the Nazis to literally kill off non-Zionist Jews and force the rest of them to become Zionists.
And now we’re in the present where the equation has massively changed. And we’re not talking about 55 or 60%. We’re talking overwhelming majority numbers. 80 to 90%.
To dismiss the beliefs of 12 million people because of a max 3 million people not sharing their view doesn’t make any sense. Why would the views of the overwhelming majority of a group not accurately represent them, but a small minority do? If this argument was about anything else but the percentage of Jews being Zionist, this wouldn’t even be a debate. It 90% of Christians supported Zionism then Zionist Christianity would be an accurate representation of Christianity.
it’s still wrong imo to characterize all Jews as Zionists. Like another poster mentioned, there are still potentially millions of Jews who do not support Zionism, and/or who oppose Israel’s genocide of the Palestinians.
Why do you feel the need to stereotype all Jews, and all congregations as being the same?
Why do you keep misrepresenting my argument which doesn’t state that all Jews are Zionist but the majority are? Why is it “antisemitic” to simply correct this notion?
Because your argument is rooted in Liberal Zionism. I pick this battle because I actually support Palestine. Here’s a much longer format explanation if you still don’t get it after the articles.
And now we’re in the present where the equation has massively changed. And we’re not talking about 55 or 60%. We’re talking overwhelming majority numbers. 80 to 90%.
Then you believe collective punishment is correct and justified. Where have I heard that one before…
Because your argument is rooted in Liberal Zionism.
No, it’s rooted in an understanding of how harmful majority stereotypes are. You completely ignored the bolded sentence which was the one I identified as antisemitic, and instead focused on the first sentence, which I agreed was fine.
80-90% of Jews in modern time are Zionists [FINE]. Zionism is the accurately representative of modern Judaism [ANTISEMITIC].
You could safely reword it to something like “The majority of Jews support Zionism”. That would be accurate.
Otherwise it’s no different from claiming something like “80% of gay men are promiscuous [made up statistic btw]” and then going on to state “Promiscuity is accurately representative of male homosexuality” as though it were true for every gay man.
Sure. I don’t disagree with that. But the question is: do these synagogues not accurately represent Judaism if the overwhelming majority of Synagogues and Jewish religious institutions are Zionist? Because the OOP says they’re not and I got banned only for correcting them that they are.
Someone mentioned below the majority of Christians are Zionist I agree with them. Nobody has a problem pointing out that most Christians are Zionist. and most Christinian institutions are Zionist.
But for some reason when you point out the same thing for Jews, somehow that’s wishing death upon all Jews. In that case why wouldn’t the same go for Zionist Christians being in danger if someone pointed out how deep the Zionist movement is within the (especially Evangelical) church?
The crux of this comes back to the belief that Jews in the modern day are an oppressed minority at the cusp of being thrown into the ovens again. Luckily my favorite substack author has also addressed this https://tariqacknickulous.substack.com/p/privileged-reality-of-jewish-demographics
Saying something like “An estimated 80-90% of Jews in modern time are also Zionists” with stats to back it up is perfectly fine to say, but it’s also worth acknowledging the fact that “10-20% of Jews are not Zionists”.
What you seem to be arguing is that, because Jews are majority Zionist, we should treat every Jewish person as though they are Zionist. The problematic part is in bold:
This is simply conflating Zionism with being Jewish as though they are the same thing. While the majority of Jews may well be Zionists (I don’t know whether the 80-90% figure is accurate or not, but let’s assume for the sake of argument it is), it’s still wrong imo to characterize all Jews as Zionists. Like another poster mentioned, there are still potentially millions of Jews who do not support Zionism, and/or who oppose Israel’s genocide of the Palestinians.
No, they don’t - and you are making the same mistake again. Pro-Zionist Jewish synagogues cannot be said to represent Judaism as a whole, because not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Jews attend Temple. Why do you feel the need to stereotype all Jews, and all congregations as being the same? YDI.
Yes that’s literally done by saying not 100% of Jews are Zionists but 80 to 90%. It’d be great if it was more. In fact most (especially European) Jews used to oppose Zionism until Zionist Jews worked together with the Nazis to literally kill off non-Zionist Jews and force the rest of them to become Zionists.
And now we’re in the present where the equation has massively changed. And we’re not talking about 55 or 60%. We’re talking overwhelming majority numbers. 80 to 90%.
To dismiss the beliefs of 12 million people because of a max 3 million people not sharing their view doesn’t make any sense. Why would the views of the overwhelming majority of a group not accurately represent them, but a small minority do? If this argument was about anything else but the percentage of Jews being Zionist, this wouldn’t even be a debate. It 90% of Christians supported Zionism then Zionist Christianity would be an accurate representation of Christianity.
Why do you keep misrepresenting my argument which doesn’t state that all Jews are Zionist but the majority are? Why is it “antisemitic” to simply correct this notion?
Because your argument is rooted in Liberal Zionism. I pick this battle because I actually support Palestine. Here’s a much longer format explanation if you still don’t get it after the articles.
Jewish Exceptionalism, Liberal Zionism, Jewish Supremacy - How YOU Inadvertently Support Israel
Then you believe collective punishment is correct and justified. Where have I heard that one before…
No, it’s rooted in an understanding of how harmful majority stereotypes are. You completely ignored the bolded sentence which was the one I identified as antisemitic, and instead focused on the first sentence, which I agreed was fine.
You could safely reword it to something like “The majority of Jews support Zionism”. That would be accurate.
Otherwise it’s no different from claiming something like “80% of gay men are promiscuous [made up statistic btw]” and then going on to state “Promiscuity is accurately representative of male homosexuality” as though it were true for every gay man.