This is something I’ve noticed a lot among well-intentioned people who aren’t trans themselves. When talking about a trans person, especially in the context of talking about them before and after transitioning, they’ll use they/them instead of she/her or he/him, as the trans person in question goes by.
It always kind of rubs me the wrong way, because like, unless they want to go by they/them, it’s still misgendering, right?
But I also always kinda feel awkward correcting the speaker on someone else’s behalf, because maybe they do go by she/they or they/he, and I just don’t know. But it feels way more common that it’s someone who doesn’t feel comfortable using she/her for a trans woman, for example.
I don’t know. Am I overthinking this? How do y’all handle situations like that?
If you don’t know the individual’s preferred pronouns, using they/them is perfectly fine. This comes from a proper grammatical standpoint and a spot of caution.
Think of it this way. They/them may not be their pronouns, but its FAR better than misgendering them with he/him or she/her.
My two cents.
Oh, totally! I meant it more like if someone knows that a trans woman goes exclusively by she/her, but chooses to refer to her by they/them. Still better than using he/him! But not quite right, if you know she doesn’t use they/them, you know?
The thing is, linguistically, everyone is a ‘they them’. Just like how you are always a ‘you’ and I am always a ‘me’.
makes sense on paper, but we’re talking about cis people casually degendering trans people this way while carefully preserving the gender of other cis people
I think correcting them is reasonable. If they are an ally, they will take it in their stride, correcting themselves and moving on.
Additional context for this perspective: I am a cis woman who uses she/it pronouns. It makes me feel uncomfortable when people use they/them for me, because it evokes a gender anxiety in me, similar (but distinct from, obviously) to what a trans woman might feel if someone used they/them pronouns for her. I did “try on” they/them pronouns for a while, way back, and it made me feel deeply uncomfortable in a way that made it clear that they weren’t a good fit for me.
Whilst I agree that they/them is better than he/him in this context (and there may be instances where the situation doesn’t feel conducive to correcting someone), I also think that correct pronouns are correct pronouns, and incorrect ones are incorrect. Like, there is, in some sense, a clear binary here.
A lot of progressive folk tend to default to they/them pronouns for people they don’t know, and I have been very proud of myself lately for telling people that I use she/it pronouns, and politely correcting people if they get it wrong thereafter (I may stick to telling people she/her if I am in a less queer space). Given that I don’t regularly experience gender dysphoria, the little splashes of dysphoria I feel when people they/them me are fairly tolerable. However, I have found that when I do check people on using the correct pronouns for me, it feels very good. I think it comes down to agency (especially as I am a cis person who has thoroughly interrogated the question of “Am I a woman tho? Because if you’re not, that’s totally chill — you have options”, and concluded that I am, in fact, a woman. It makes it feel like more of a choice than if it was just foisted upon me against my will (I mean, it sort of was foisted upon me, but I put a load of stickers and spikes on my AGAB, and now it feels like mine)
That sounds a little like they’re hesitant to properly gender someone which begs the question “why?”.
That being said, I will settle for a they if it’s all I can get from someone.
I’m not here to argue, just to clarify. The genderless applies to all of us linguistically, but it may not be the best descriptor?
I.e., I am a cisgender male, so that would make he/him closest to truth, but they/them certainly applies?
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They/them has always been the way to refer to someone whose gender you don’t know. It is the neutral term between binary ones. So, if they don’t know or are unsure which binary pronouns to use then I think it’s a positive.
As for correcting someone, I think it’s fine to do that. If the person in question continues to use the wrong pronouns after correcting, that’s when I might actually consider it misgendering, unless they’re just super ADHD like me, and then it’s possible it might take a second reminder, LOL.
For reference, I’m technically a trans-woman though I’m agender, I present femme and prefer she or they.
if someone says they/them when first getting to know me, its chill. i dont pass amazing cus of my voice but I’ll make sure they know I am she/her
if they know this and still say they/them I’ll bring it up and mention ‘I’m not non binary, refer to me as you would any other woman’ and itll either make sense to them or I’ll consider ending that relationship
If the person who refers to the trans person don’t know their gender, then they might be using “they/them” as a gender neutral pronoun, which it is. If they (no pun intended) do know the gender of the trans person, then they could either be protesting because they’re bigoted or because they “simply” are uncomfortable. In case it’s the latter, again, “simply” inform them about the correct pronouns.
I know I’m using a lot of “simply” and I also know that it isn’t simple. But that’s what I’d try to do.
I think that’s a good approach, thanks!
Trans-folk are the only people I try to avoid using they to describe. I know it can cause discomfort, and potentially lead to others getting confused about pronouns if anyone listening doesn’t know my grammatical quirks.
For everyone else I may use they for a variety of reasons. One of the most common: if a person’s gender hasn’t had clues about it in the conversation, I’m likely to just default to they. Like if I’m just calling my partner “my partner” rather than their name, I won’t then specify gender with pronouns. Disclosing gender when it doesn’t matter can feel weird.
They’re trying. Just treat them as people.
When it’s about someone else: “Oh, is [trans person] nonbinary? I thought [trans person] used she/he.”
When it’s about myself: “Using ‘she’ is fine, thank you.”Both good responses, thank you! I might borrow those
I don’t think one has to be nonbinary to be okay with they/them pronouns. I know binary trans and cis people who use he/they and she/they.
I agree. I just prefer to have something quick and easy to say, rather than qualifying all the possible scenarios with my clarifying question.
This also leaves room for, “oh no, [person] isn’t nonbinary, but they use he/they.”
If you don’t know someones gender they/them is not misgendering. (Should be the default for anybody)
If you know the person’s gender and it’s not they/them then it’s misgendering unless it’s ok with that person.
Using they/them on someone who looks trans and nobody else is just as bad as misgendering someone.
Its simple. If someone has not told you there pronouns, use they/them. If you know there pronouns then use what they want. (Yes it’s really that simple)
But I also always kinda feel awkward correcting the speaker on someone else’s behalf, because maybe they do go by she/they or they/he, and I just don’t know.
Uh… You literally explained it yourself. This is exactly why people use they/them when they don’t have more information. What’s the alternative, to not speak about non-binary, trans, or gender-fluid people at all? Or to confront every person you meet and demand their pronouns?? Personally, I start with they/them, and change it depending on the person’s preference.
I’m sorry it rubs you the wrong way, but in my opinion you’re being oversensitive. It’s not misgendering, it’s neutral. Maybe it’s just a linguistic limitation, but there’s no other way to refer to someone without prejudging their gender identity, especially if you don’t know their name. Obviously, if you know someone’s preferred pronouns and choose not to use them, that’s a problem and a different issue; definitely correct those people! But don’t make perfect the enemy of good by shaming well-intentioned allies…
I thought it was generally accpetable until a preference was identified. Like if you just met said person or referred to a fluid/trans person from afar, them/they is an acceptable default.
Using they/them exclusively and intentionally is misgendering, especially if you know someone’s pronouns. Using the singular they as part of natural speech isn’t. There’s a grey area in the middle as well.
I get they/them’d a lot by people trying to be inclusive. My goto response is usually along the lines of “I appreciate the sentiment but my pronouns are…”
If someone is being a hateful bigot just walk away
Yes, you are overthinking and should definitely stop getting offended and/or speaking on behalf of others, especially in scenarios where people are going out of their way to try to be polite.
At best you look like you’re going out of your way to be offended.
To be clear, I’m not offended or trying to speak for others. But I know that if I wasn’t there and someone wasn’t using the right pronouns for me, I’d appreciate someone speaking up to correct them
I have commented elsewhere already, but I think it’s good to correct people when you know someone’s pronouns are different to what was just used.
I am cis, but I am in community with many trans people, and am pretty good at remembering and using the right pronouns for folks. However, I wasn’t always like that — I only found my queer community once I got to university, and I remember that I would often slip up when talking about an nb friend (who was actually the first person I met who used they/them pronouns).
I only got good at using the correct pronouns because of the support of friends who would firmly but non-judgmentally correct me whenever I messed up (and explain to me that I shouldn’t make a big deal apologising if I did make a mistake).
My friends doing this helped me to get good at this much sooner, as well as shielding my NB friend from the emotional stress of correcting me; They once snapped at me when I slipped up, and later apologised and said that whilst they felt they were reasonable to correct me, that the anger they expressed was not deserved, and that it was basically overflow anger from having to deal with university bureaucrats and ignorant students who were not even trying to get it right. My point here is that I was a good faith person who was genuinely trying to be better, but my mistakes that occurred in front of my nb friend risked triggering a lot of stressy-upsetty feelings relating to being intentionally or callously misgendered).
Why?
For one, that’s a hell of a responsibility to give others, even well meaning others. I wouldn’t want my friends to feel they had to speak on my behalf, nor would I do so on theirs. I’d say that’s a healthy level of respect to have in a friendship.
But to a larger point: Why are you so concerned about conversations others may or may not be having about you?
Just to rephrase the point you just made: You’re so worried that people who don’t know you well enough to be sure of your preferred pronouns may be misgendering you with non-gendered pronouns, that you hope others will correct them on your behalf.
This is, at minimum, overthinking, and at worst a deeply unhealthy mindset to have.
The kindest thing I can say is that whether or not you consider this a problem, it’s at least a rare one; nobody talks about you as much as you think. People’s favourite topics of discussion are themselves, and the odds are this doesn’t happen even a fraction as much as you think.
Are you trans?
Effin right? I feel like a large percentage of trans people deal with this exact problem. The fear of what others will think and say about you keeps many of us in the closet
My mother tongue has no gendered pronouns. When speaking English, I regularly misgender eeveryone, because my mind cannot really wrap itself around the concept of having to keep track of my conversation partner’s gender. Or that of someone else. Even people I’ve known for decades have an about 5% chance of being misgendered.
It feels good that I can ignore people’s gender and just talk about a human. This might be an incredibly alien concept to an Indo-European, though. But still, people who only started learning Indo-European languages such as English, Spanish, Ukrainian, German, Albanian or Greek, at the age of ten will not have learned the concept of gendering people in time for it to not feel glued-on-top.
When I’m talking about everyone else as they, that being a way to avoid thinking about people’s genders, it feels odd to then speak differently about transgender people.
At least I don’t want to be only a gender. It’s much better if people can see the actual individual behind, and trying to find ways to forget about the concept of gender helps glue less stereotypes over my image as it stands in someone’s mind.
The gendered pronouns in Indo-European cultures are a very sad and harmful phenomenon. I’d say it’s the better the more people stop their usage. A man (and that also includes trans men) is a man even if you don’t spend every moment keeping track of their gender when talking. “They” helps see the individual.
Plus, it means not imposing another culture upon us who don’t have gendered pronouns.
Finnish? I love that everyone is hän or se, it’s wonderful
More languages should make gender an adjective rather than a noun or pronoun
When the person does not use they/them pronouns, using they/them to refer to that person is misgendering that person. If you don’t know, it’s usually fine to ask the person what pronouns should be used and once you have that knowledge you can correct others when they use the wrong pronouns.
I prefer non-retroactive, historical pronouns when talking about the past, for myself at least.
Pre transition me was a mess, he was constantly depressed, but current me is fine, she’s able to smile in a way that looks genuine.
That’s how I prefer it, but I don’t think there is an accepted consensus on the topic. They/them works as its gender neutral, so could refer to anyone at any point, but I don’t like it.
I hate when people use they/them as a hedge. I’ll be out in public, and someone mau not entirely certain of my gender, so they go for what they think is the safe, respectful, and neutral option of they/them. And it feels like an insult. It feels like they’re clocking me.
If I were not binary it would be good, but I’m not so don’t.
They/them is a good default. If you want someone to use specific pronouns, just ask them to? They could also ask of course, but I think calling they/them misgendering is leaving even less options and making things more complex for everyone who is just trying to be polite.
If you are unsure, they/them until you ask or you are informed. What’s the big deal with that?
