My partner has been onboard the K-pop train for several years. As much as they enjoy their groups, we’ve discussed several aspects that are connected to the global American capitalist hegemony. Keep in mind that these are two people’s experiences rather than a scientific consensus.
The List
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As K-pop has become more mainstream, songs have begun to incorporate more and more non-Korean lyrics, particularly English.
The K-pop industry is large enough such that it attracts international artists, almost all of whom appear Eastern/SE Asian. Exo from the 2010’s is one group who had eight South Korean and eight Chinese members, and they released songs in Korean, Mandarin, and Japanese. (Exo slowly lost its Chinese members due to mistreatment, but that’s a different story).
Nevertheless, Exo is more of the exception. Many groups sing exclusively in Korean and English. And whereas in the past, Korean would be the predominant lyrics with a sprinkle of English, many newer songs are the exact opposite with Korean as the minority.[1] Perhaps this is the price paid for going global.
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Girl groups in k-pop face very different treatment from boy groups.
My impression of the industry is that “typical” K-pop idols start training young, break out as part of a boy/girl group, and finally dive into a solo careers as singers, actors, etc. Not everyone makes it past each step, and some idols come from other media industries.
Girl groups deal with additional complications. Several girl groups have debuted with minors amongst their members[2], and they have been getting progressively younger. When you consider that idols train can train for several years, this means a 16-year old member probably starting training at 13-14 years old.
In addition, girl groups are generally shorter lived than boy groups. A large part of the blame goes to the record labels. A new girl group may debut with a label, and they’ll get all the attention, publicity, and studio backing they could ask for. A couple years later, a new girl group will debut with the same label, and the previous one will be neglected. I’ve been told that girl groups live and die by what is trendy in the moment, and this constant churn is one way to chase it.
Generally speaking, boy groups do not face those same pressures.
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Sexualization of idols
Sexualization of K-pop idols exists. It’s a thing. It exists among both girl groups and boy groups, but in different ways. Girl groups face the more well known sexualization we see in our society. Boy groups face aggressive homoerotic ‘shipping’ among their fans.
In fact, the industry plays into it. One of the common stipulations in an idol’s contract is that they will neither date nor enter romantic relationships for a period of time. This can range from a few years to the length of their contract. The implication being that the idols are single and available for you, the consumer. Coupled with the number of underage idols and prevalence of Asian fetishization in the West, this sexualization is particularly gross.
Conclusion
Next time someone speaks about the cultural exports of K-pop, you can ask “but at what cost??” and mention the above.
For example, As If It’s Your Last by Blackpink in 2017 vs. Shutdown in 2022 ↩︎
For example, Ive debuted in 2021, which means Wonyoung and Liz were 17, and Leeseo was 15. Similarly, NewJeans debuted in 2022. Their youngest member, Hyein, was 14.# ↩︎
I think RoK overall faces a lot of horrible misogyny. For the Burning Suns scandal, some of those idols have been convicted, and they got off relatively light IMO. Seungri ended up pleading guilty to all charges in exchange for 18 months in prison.
In addition, I’ve heard anecdotes from South Korean friends who say that the men are incredibly pushy, won’t say no, etc. Also, the beauty standards are something else. Plastic surgery is very common. Women are expected to wear make-up in public. Even my Korean friend who never wears make-up in the US would go through the effort every day when they were visiting.
A gross mischaracterization of a country you haven’t visited.
Much like the constant propaganda against other non-white countries who are “inferior” in their treatment of women’s rights: “Brown countries use the burka.” “You aren’t safe to wander after dark, without men harassing you.” “The birthrate is low there because brown men are misogynistic” “If the birthrate is high, it’s because they have to keep trying until they get a son” “They kill the female babies”
If it was about the DPRK, I’d figure yeah, racism/propaganda, but this is Occupied Korea people are talking about, the part of Korea occupied by Amerikkka, who took over from Japan on colonizing/brutalizing Korea, who drew up arbitrary lines that designate one part as South and one as North, who backed the brutally repressive Syngman-Ree, who tried to conquer the whole nation. The amount of damage the US has done to Korea and continues to do is monstrous. Occupied Korea is more or less a puppet state and after the US destroyed so much of Korea and murdered so many Korean people, they swooped in to rebuild the parts they destroyed in their own foreign capital image of exploitation.
I don’t think it’s racist to figure that it may be significantly worse culturally than it could be due to US occupation and Japanese occupation before that. It’s important not to mix up criticism of the consequences of colonialism/imperialism/occupation in various parts of the world with being prejudiced against an ethnic group. The one could look like the other if the person isn’t clear, but they aren’t the same.
IF you go to South Korea, there is no expectation that women have to wear make up. Women are allowed to be casual, dress down, not wear make up, not have plastic surgery. Some people dress up and others do not. OP’s friend did not need to wear makeup every day. All Korean men are not harassing women.
These are bigoted judgemental stereotypes from westoids with a cultural superiority complex - often men who play white savior to “oppressed” brown women. The brown societies are still feudal. White societies are enlightened.
The only minor difference in this case is qualifying it as SOUTH Korea. So the women didn’t have to push the subway train home after they got all made up to get sexually harassed on a night out.
I’m not really buying it’s coming from bigotry in this instance, considering I did not see any sort of “west is better” coming from the person (which would generally not be allowed on lemmygrad anyway). Many societies have issues with patriarchy (including the US, which no doubt exports some of its reactionary culture to Occupied Korea) and I doubt Occupied Korea is any exception for patriarchy, considering its history and present. Perhaps there is some exaggeration going on, but that doesn’t mean patriarchal issues aren’t real. After all, it is Occupied Korea where the 4B movement originated; I don’t see how that comes into being through fakery, unless one is going to claim it’s all western-invented or something, but since the west already occupies that part of Korea, I’m not sure what exactly it would be accomplishing for their interests there. They usually manufacture such things when they want to divide the populace and vilify the existing leadership to coup a place, not when a place is already under their thumb.
From my perspective, all I see here is two people on the internet I don’t know claiming different things. And the information about Korea’s history I have to go on, which indicates that Occupied Korea is a highly exploited place (by the west).
And though it is not uncommon for someone to try to play the “white savior”, it is also not uncommon for people to downplay patriarchal issues and pull out the “not all men” card when nobody said all men in the first place. Patriarchal culture, generally speaking, socializes men to “pursue” women and attach their self-esteem to it, while also socializing them to treat all emotions they have as invalid other than like anger and excitement maybe, which means a lot of men are set up to pursue, get rejected, and not take it well at all (to put it lightly). It doesn’t excuse their behavior, but the conditions make it very easy for it to happen. It’s also obviously not all of them and there are degrees on how extreme they get when they handle it badly, but it’s idealism to ignore how conditions impact people.
Basically, I think it is possible that through a game of telephone of the other person describing what their friends said, you are thinking bigotry by focusing too much on the messenger, when it was probably more like their friends doing the thing that some women do, where they describe the extremes of patriarchy they deal with, sometimes with sweeping language because they spend a lifetime dealing with fear and abuse, and some people (especially men) are quick to get defensive about this because they view it as some kind of attack on all men.
If you don’t have anything to base an opinion on about another culture (other than some shit you heard), then don’t express an opinion.
Spreading racist stereotypes about South Korean people is bigotry. This went well beyond criticism of the K-pop industry.
The person in question literally said to you: “It’s very possible I misremember what my friends said; I’ll check on them later.”
And you’re still banging on about it with a one-track mind. And as I already went over, it is possible this comes from “South Korean” women stating these views about “South Korean” men based on their personal experiences with them! Not because they are racist but because they are being literal in describing their experiences in life because a lot of women deal with patriarchy and its harassment and abuse. Do you acknowledge this reality of the world that pervades so many cultures (including the west, which you seem to think people are excusing of responsibility somehow???) or are you going to talk around it?
I bang on because it is a racist stereotype of Korean culture. It’s a racist stereotype regardless of the source.
Quoting South Korean women is just a micro aggressive version of of the same racist statement.
Write and then deleted an essay on racism because I can’t be fucked arguing with white people on offensive shit like this. Carry on.
I have no problems saying that racist stereotypes are real and are a problem, but that doesn’t change the reality of patriarchy being pervasive. It’s not an either-or for me, both are real and can be real at the same time.
That said, I’m still not clear on if you actually believe patriarchy is real and a problem that affects many cultures. This whole thing kinda feels like people talking past each other a lot and I just feel kinda bad about it.
It’s very possible I misremember what my friends said; I’ll check on them later. My two Korean acquaintances both grew up largely in the US, so that may have also colored their perception.
I am by no means casting judgement on South Koreans for any thing I mentioned. If anything, I believe its the American occupation that has had a largely malign influence on South Korean society, including the treatment of women.
Korean men are incredibly pushy? Women are expected to wear make-up? These are horrible stereotypes.