First of all, I have no intention of taking or promoting any side here, because I’m not well informed enough about what has happened since 2022… however, before getting burned out of the internet somewhen by the end of the last decade, I used to follow a lot of anarchist collectives. I was on Riseup and Autistici mailing lists, and I remember reading a lot about everything that was happening in Ukraine directly from the anarchists there, the protests being led by openly fascist paramilitary groups like the C14, Svoboda, Tryzub, Pravy Sektor, the SNA that became the Azov Battalion, tons of pictures and videos documenting everything and everyone, even American Blackwater mercenaries operating in the country. These fascist groups clashing with socialists, setting fire to union buildings and shooting people trying to escape, and now it’s hard to even find references to these groups and their actions on the internet, like it was sanitized (not so long ago, I also had trouble finding some materials from antizionist rabbis I had read back in the mid-2000s, I actually just found accusations of them being antisemitic on main search engines, so I really believe there is a lot of fuckery going on to control information)… and I’m afraid if I start talking about Donetsk and Lugansk I might get accused of something, so never mind.
I’m mentioning it because it has been only a few months since I joined Lemmy, and I’ve seen some controversy about accusations of nazis in Ukrainian lines, like it’s tankie propaganda or that Dugin shit… but, uh, back when pro-EU factions took the government, the anarchists had documented the nazis very well… is there a generational gap of information here? How many people were following anarchist press (not the shit you’d find on Twitter, Tumblr, or whatever) back in 2014?
ps: I’m not here to discuss Russia.
edit: fixed some grammar mistakes I noticed, but I’m no native speaker.
Plenty volunteered for more dangerous missions, for example members of Right Sector fought in Mariupol and Bahkmut, but my conspiracy theory is that when a lot of these fascist groups joined the army, they were often sent on more dangerous missions, and that’s a large part of how they thinned out their ranks.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it was sometimes deliberate, but if not certainly no one lost any sleep over it, even if they were given a hero’s funeral for propaganda purposes. Zelensky and plenty senior members of the government and army are Jewish, and far right paramilitaries were always a threat to the government, so yeah. Certainly the Volunteer Corps/67th was full of fascists. IRC this caused issues, because the fascists leadership would ensure the newer recruits saw combat first, sparing their Right Sector friends. This ultimately led to them losing ground. Then in 2024, presumably after they’d been thinned out further and because of their losing ground, the unit was disbanded and its soldiers were sent to new units.
The reason you see people get annoyed about accusations of nazis in Ukraine, is because Russia has exaggerated the Nazi problem in Ukraine for propaganda purposes. Present day, a lot of them are dead, and in the last election Right Sector got something like 2% of the vote. Traditionally, there’d be nazi thugs causing problems at the Kiev pride, but IRC something like 70% of Ukrainians are largely ok with gay people. Not great, but this is eastern europe, so much better than it was, and much better than the alternative. Certainly better than Russia. Senior officials in Donetsk have gone on record to say all homosexuals should be murdered and one even complimented Ukraine’s Right Sector for beating up the gays at pride. Obviously, the first casualty of war is the truth. So the knee jerk reaction is to say there are no nazis in Ukraine, which is nonsense. But not as bad as it once was, and better than in some neighbouring countries, almost certainly.
But ignoring this is a war, and the amount of propaganda out there, you also have to factor in the nature of the news media. Firstly, news = man bites dog. A dog biting a man isn’t news. A man biting a dog is. News media invariably report exceptions, not the rule. You’ll also often see media waves. Someone is murdered and suddenly the news media are reporting on all these murders. The initial story garners media attention, the public become concerned, the media react to that concern by publishing more stories, the public get even more concerned, the media publish even more stories, politicians get involved, even more stories, etc. etc.
For example, this is almost certainly why the public’s perception of crime is entirely out of whack with the data. Violent crime has dropped significantly in much of the western world but you wouldn’t know it from watching the media. Especially as scary stories are more likely to foster engagement and once again propaganda exacerbates this even further. Eg. London. Lowest murder rate in decades, if you go on social media or watch the news, you’ll come out thinking it’s a deeply unsafe city. The fact the mayor’s a muslim doesn’t help.
Anyway, something similar likely happened with neo-nazis in Ukraine. Media wave + man bites dog. Then it’s no longer news, and the media move on to the next story. That and propaganda.
Bit of a tangent and a gross simplification, but in the 60s Baudrillard warned us of the inability of consciousness to distinguish reality from a simulation of reality, especially in technologically advanced societies. Reality and the representation of that reality blend into one, with no way of knowing where one goes over into the other. Basically, in the present day and with current tech it’s become impossible to distinguish what is real, and we no longer interact with reality but the hyperreal. In many ways the hyperreal is more real than reality. If crimes drops in reality, it is less relevant than what happens to crime in the blending of simulation and reality.
This is a very long comment, and I don’t have time to proof read it, but I hope it contributes to the discussion. I’m also thinking out loud.
Obviously, if someone comes from a part of the fediverse where they make excuses for Russia or China, and start “just asking questions” about why we’re supporting Ukraine as they’re all nazis, the responses that will get will be different. I won’t waste too much time on Russia, you said you didn’t want to discuss it, but besides the Dugin thing, Putin regularly quotes Ivan Ilyin who openly admired Hitler and one the founders of Wagner was a full blown neo-nazi tattoos and all, and that’s not the end of it. So if someone with Russian sympathies starts banging on about Ukraine being over-run with Nazis, to me that’s like a MAGA supporter lecturing women on feminism. They are free to do it on their communities, where my views aren’t welcome either.
Thank you. I replied to another comment in this thread https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/61581354/23757784 but it might be a gross oversimplification and faulty recall. Yeah, I do think Russia claiming “denazification” is quite ironic, but until it was about protecting separatist regions instead of attacking others, I had a more clear opinion on the matter (as per that comment). After 2022 I prefer to not be so loud and absolute about it.
Were you following the Ukrainian anarchists in 2014?
Merely loosely aware of. [May have seen some stuff directly from anarchists there, but I don’t recall specifically.]
In 2014, I was more paying attention to the leaked info on suppressed [potentially] emancipatory technologies (like zero inertia propulsion spaceships in use (e.g. by the US Navy, such as TR-3B)), and participating in overt emancipatory technology development (like distro-agnostic linux tooling) and advocacy and support and community building. But was peripherally aware of both, the crooked statist jingoist portions of global hegemony & totalitarian tyranny ploys afoot in the Ukraine, and, the increase of leaving that corrupt devastating dangerous system to participate in anarchist (like-minded) do-ocratic organisings, doings, support, which I did not doubt was in part caused by the worsening geopolitical situation atop the pre-existing oligarchy problem.
and now it’s hard to even find references to these groups and their actions on the internet
The past dozen years have been especially bad for the enshitification of the internet, not least by corporate search engines increasingly censoring heavily, going from tens of thousands of search results (to freely rummage through), to mere hundreds, if even, like they want to just give you “the one true way”. Our contemporary book burning before our eyes, at our fingertips. History being rewritten.
Given the "first casualty"1 propaganda going around, it’s not surprising that this piece of history is especially hit hard.
I’m afraid if I start talking about Donetsk and Lugansk I might get accused of something,
And I think that’s part of the intent, of both the censorship and smears, to terrorise people into self-censorship in fear of the baying totalitarians all around ready to lynch anyone for “wrongthink”, to decry them as a witch or whatever other slur for the othered outcast class who do not stay in the mass formation repeating the groupthink chorus. But best (only?) way to defeat such totalitarianised psyche proliferation, is to keep speaking out, introducing them to other perspectives, until the cognitive dissonance intrinsic to the totalitarianised psyche short-circuits and they experience an awakening, and can start rebuilding their atrophied cognitive capacities, no longer being kept in a terrorised social-dominance limbic reflex. [Edit: And, it’s worth remembering, totalitarianism unchallenged only worsens, where any and all atrocities are seen as necessary virtues. Not challenging them to keep your head down and stay safe, is not a viable option.]
the anarchists had documented the nazis very well… is there a generational gap of information here?
Anything archived anywhere? Like even on archive.org? Would be nice to dig up and re-present some of this history.
How many people were following anarchist press (not the shit you’d find on Twitter, Tumblr, or whatever) back in 2014?
I wonder if perhaps I was seeing some of it, not just from astute friends on irc, but also from those posting to the first big diaspora pod, joindiaspora.com [Edit: funnily enough closed in (iirc) 2020 (or 2021?), without diaspora’s migration fully working yet, meaning we had to join new pods without our contacts and post history etc], which was quite active with a higher concentration of those most interested in anarchism and similar areas of interest back then (before the googleplus exodus “bubbly bunch” joined with their choir of corporate-statist normalcy).
Would be really good to have some of that history neatly presented for the normies in reductive opposame-polarised groupthink mindsets/narratives to short-circuit upon.
1 “The first casualty of war is the truth.”
I don’t know of it being archived, I don’t have contact with anyone from these networks anymore, but I didn’t want to talk about Donetsk and Lugansk because perspectives change, and I don’t know if the situation of today is the same as it was 12 years ago.
Being a South American myself, every time we “vote wrong” the Western powers sponsor coups or simply invade us to change the government, so despite reading from afar, I saw too many similarities, and my take was that after the government didn’t side with Western powers, the mass media started a generic campaign against corruption to mobilize public anger - all so common here. Literal nazis were the shock troops leading the violence, as it was denounced by the anarchists documenting all the groups. At the time, it was easy information to find, even Google wasn’t so enshitified, so you could find some noblogs or Indymedia content as well… (I think Rosa Negra was starting at the time, perhaps they might have information), but recently I tried to find it again and it’s easier to find (on English-speaking internet, at least) allegations saying that Azov isn’t nazi at all and it’s just Russian propaganda, than their own pictures and speeches showing they are literal nazis (same for other the other groups I mentioned in the post).
Everyone that was against this nazi-enforced coup was labelled pro-Russian, regardless of whether they were just against a nazi-enforced coup. Opposition was outlawed and persecuted, and then the regions that had a clear majority against the coup, which to my surprise nowadays is called the Revolution of Dignity, started being bombed and slaughtered for not recognizing the new government. They organized and had clear, internationally observed referendums about their self-determination, but it was dismissed and ridiculed by Western media and governments, and this is where Russian active support to these regions enters.
I don’t believe for a second in Russia’s good intentions, but I believe for people so cornered, they accept support from anyone. I also believe that Russia expanding the conflict outside of the separatist regions forced people outside of them to support anyone on their side (but since actual Ukrainian left organizations were outlawed, it’s kinda hard to know their take on all of that…).
However, Western media and social media platforms were always pro-Western agenda. American liberals eat that shit like cornflakes and pose as “left” on the internet, so all that was opposed was dismissed as Russian propaganda, etc, etc, even what I’d read from Ukrainian anarchist sources. So it was always kinda pointless taking it to Twitter or so because of the American “left”. There are a lot of activists that are now mature and are probably very knowledgeable about theory and praxis and current events, but that I fear had their formative “rebel” years on Twitter and its narratives (not anyone’s fault, it’s hard to find information on your own when you don’t have anyone to help you, and liberals do pose as rebels on Twitter). So that’s why I wonder if there is a generational information gap, because when I see leftist (including anarchists) support for the Ukrainian government nowadays, well, it’s kinda weird compared to what I knew of the situation. But I do recognize I don’t have nearly enough information about how everything developed to really have an opinion worth being heard (but back then, I think being anti-maidan wasn’t polarizing at all among anarchists and other socialist groups).
the mass media started a generic campaign against corruption to mobilize public anger
All too familiar here. Survived a genocide here that they spurred on public anger for and indifference to with lies. Except that was to cover up corruption and shift blame (and hate) to the vulnerable.
allegations saying that Azov isn’t nazi at all and it’s just Russian propaganda, than their own pictures and speeches showing they are literal nazis (same for other the other groups I mentioned in the post).
Yes, and unfortunately such is effective, especially in the minds of those who want to believe. Group-think does terrible things to people, causing them to do yet even more terrible things to other people yet. Especially when so manipulated and curated. Doubly especially when used to hide and normalise things like Nazism.
Everyone that was against this nazi-enforced coup was labelled pro-Russian, regardless of whether they were just against a nazi-enforced coup.
Yep. A very familiar pattern now. Same modus-operandi over and over. Terrorises minds out of nuance, to protect the narrative that permits the ploys and abuse.
Opposition was outlawed and persecuted, and then the regions that had a clear majority against the coup, which to my surprise nowadays is called the Revolution of Dignity, started being bombed and slaughtered for not recognizing the new government.
Almost like that’s the intended ploy, and those behind the armies are really, secretly, on the same side, against the people, and are merely using the lines on the map to further separate and abuse us by.
They organized and had clear, internationally observed referendums about their self-determination, but it was dismissed and ridiculed by Western media and governments, and this is where Russian active support to these regions enters.
And none of this would be happening if not for the PNAC and associated ploys, and NATO expansion in breach of the treaties that had kept the peace. Not following their own rules, so they can carry out these monstrous ploys, throwing those who would be most fit to rise up against the corrupt political structures, into the meat grinder. Priming the next phase of the weapons of mass distraction, by which they acquire, through terror, more power over people, making us more vulnerable to their plans to depopulate the world to way under 500 million people, as they had published on the Georgia guide stones, as if such vast atrocity were a necessary virtue. (It’s not. ~ They sit on the means of abundance and emancipation, hog tie us to pollution and rents, then blame us, and offer the solution of a global cull of the human population, rather than relinquish their oppressive power over us and their suppression of the means of emancipation, where even they would be richer than they are now. It’s beyond merely stupid. And then we’re supposed to run around in fear, distracted by other countries, that they also abuse, and play abuse off abuse, to keep us all distracted, like a magician not wanting us to see through their trick. Oh noes! Russia! Oh noes! The Ukraine! And pay no attention to the calls for self determination, autonomy, independence, and different ways of doing things. Just kept in the false dichotomy from the opposames.)
I don’t believe for a second in Russia’s good intentions,
Yeah. Putin (whichever of his dozen+ body doubles (and/or skinsuits/androids/clones)) is in the same big club. Talks a better talk than many of the political muppets in the west, more actually like an adult in the room, but ultimately still attends the same parties, still a “WEF Young Leader”, ruled by the same banking empire.
but I believe for people so cornered, they accept support from anyone.
Yeah, like the other reply here highlighted an example of.
It’s easy to be an angel in heaven. Hard not to ally with a devil when a bigger devil’s threatening you.
However, Western media and social media platforms were always pro-Western agenda. American liberals eat that shit like cornflakes and pose as “left” on the internet, so all that was opposed was dismissed as Russian propaganda, etc, etc, even what I’d read from Ukrainian anarchist sources. So it was always kinda pointless taking it to Twitter or so because of the American “left”. There are a lot of activists that are now mature and are probably very knowledgeable about theory and praxis and current events, but that I fear had their formative “rebel” years on Twitter and its narratives (not anyone’s fault, it’s hard to find information on your own when you don’t have anyone to help you, and liberals do pose as rebels on Twitter).
This is well known and you can easily find a lot about this online, but the involvement of these right-wing groups got significantly less over the years after 2014, and in the last election they were basically irrelevant. The integration of the Azov militia into the Ukrainian army is more problematic, but even there some people say that this basically neutered them, and after the heavy losses early in the war the remains of the Azov battalion seem indeed largely irrelevant and/or have little to do with what they were in the mid 2010s.
What I am about to say is effectively a power upvote, but this is in direct alignment with what my Ukrainian friend who fought in Ukraine’s civil was has to say about these things. She hates Azov’s integration but in this current moment still finds herself sending money to United24 because even though she once sat on a rooftop with a rifle, she feels that the best way to keep her sister alive is to support the national army that once tried to de-legitimize her resistance and integrated her enemies.
The way she’s put it is that her objection to the far right militia’s was that they were fundamentally bigots and she cannot abide racists. The russian army presents in her home a foreign occupying imperial military which in many ways is bigots, racists, and then more insidiousness on top of all that. I haven’t really talked about her here on lemmy for a long time because it gets exhausting being told she was a CIA asset
Yup. Alas, succumbing to the fallacious “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” ploy. Redraws the lines of division, breaking “class solidarity”, keeping us divided, conquered, and worse.
unsure if i am reading it right, she was saying russian forces were bigger racists so is aiding the lesser racists?
i feel like this sounds incendiary but i really dont mean it to, sorry :(
bigger threats to her community’s safety. she is willing to send aid to people who tolerate the insidious presence of bigotry if it means the people who loath bigotry are still alive tomorrow to fight bigotry
Whitewashing a country’s misdeeds because another is currently worse is one of the main hobbies of people on social media, especially Lemmy.
Every country is susceptible and they simply refuse to acknowledge that they’re lying to themselves because it makes them feel superior.
As a current example, articles in well-known Canadian publications consistently pretend they have zero MAGA-like conservatives, in spite of decades of evidence of the contrary and the 2025 election proving otherwise.
It just feels good for people to kick others when they’re down and feel like a better person.
As a current example, articles in well-known Canadian publications consistently pretend they have zero MAGA-like conservatives, in spite of decades of evidence of the contrary and the 2025 election proving otherwise.
And that well known (worse) example in recent years.
Holy Christ thanks for the info
