Sealioning (also sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity (“I’m just trying to have a debate”), and feigning ignorance of the subject matter. It may take the form of “incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate”, and has been likened to a denial-of-service attack targeted at human beings. The term originated with a 2014 strip of the webcomic Wondermark by David Malki, which The Independent called “the most apt description of Twitter you’ll ever see”.
Yeah I’m kind of mixed on this concept, because there is nothing wrong with asking for a source and/or asking someone to explain their position. And it seems like a really bad idea to discourage people from asking questions like that.
I understand where you’re coming from, but it’ll be easy to tell. Someone who’s sealioning will skip or “forget” points you’ve already made when they’re making their counter arguments. The conversation will be irritating and demanding.
Someone who genuinely wants to discuss and learn won’t wear on you that way. Their replies won’t have that “I outsmarted you and you’re an idiot” kind of feel. It’s hard to explain, but people can recognize the difference. I don’t think there’s a threat to honest debate here.
Yes, it’s possible to confuse sealions with people who are simply rude and obnoxious, but since I don’t like talking to either one, I don’t much care.
Forgetting points that were already made is something that I commonly encounter, but I just attribute that to people being generally forgetful. I don’t have any expectation of other people putting in much effort in rereading the whole thread before each response; so if someone forgets what was previously discussed, I’ll just respond with a summary and continue from there.
I think the key part is whether it’s being done in good faith or bad faith. Sometimes I ask a stupid question on Lemmy, but because I am honestly curious and not trying to get into a fight, and I usually accept the reply to me and don’t take it as an invite to get into a debate, I think people can tell I’m not sealioning.
If I replied “source?” for your comment right now, I’d be trolling. I almost certainly know that it is a bad idea to discourage sourcing information, and that should not be something I need a cited source for. That would probably be sealioning. Someone asking for a source on a meme I posted is probably genuinely curious and not sealioning.
And as per usual, judging intent can be difficult, especially when people (including me) come into a forum with my own sets of biases, pieces of knowledge I have that I incorrectly assume that everyone else knows, and absence of knowledge that others incorrectly assume everyone else knows. So people who are not sealioning might get mistaken for it just because they want a source on something they do not know that most people do. I see where you are coming from.
You usually only find out after repeatedly explaining, yet the interlocutor remaining unconvinced to a point where someone with good faith would’ve had enough information to work with.
That’s the thing, it takes time and Gish gallops you into proving ever more reduced assertions.
It’s very childish in nature, yet devis as it takes on the guide of scientific rational discourse.
Yeah. I strongly dislike this whole classification that politely asking someone to back up what they said, or asking basic questions about it, is proof that you’re a terrible person and grounds for immediately quitting the conversation.
It also strikes me as relevant that the same people who say it is a sin, also tend to have no problem with overtly toxic behavior like slinging extreme abuse at anyone who disagrees with them or otherwise being an asshole.
I mean there are some keywords and phrases in the actual textbook definition here like “trolling”, “harrassment”, “incessant bad-faith invitations”. It’s a legitimate thing, but I almost always see it being used illegitimately by someone to attack another who is simply asking them to back up their statements. For example:
I think the difference is that sealioning is a pattern of behavior, rather than just occasionally asking for a source. It describes the lack of intent to engage in good faith discussion and instead just is a method of trolling.
Yeah. There are genuine types of sophisticated trolling which involve pretending to be overtly polite while refusing to engage in any respect with the substance of what the other person’s saying, using politeness as a shield to sneak bullshit and bad-faith engagement into the discourse while making the other person look unreasonable if they start getting irritated about it.
In about 100% of cases where I’ve seen someone accused of “sealioning,” though, it is just that they are trying to engage with the conversation and ask for sources, if you have a certain way of approaching disagreement, that’s kryptonite to your argument and so the only response is to start whining about sealioning.
I have definitely come across what your first paragraph describes. Both sealioning and concern trolling definitely happens, on this site and on others.
Yeah. Probably my least favorite brand of it is when someone wanders into the comments to say, “I heard Kamala Harris wandered over to Gaza personally and shot some Palestinians just for fun, and then stopped by Tel Aviv to engage in some light foreplay with Netanyahu before getting back on a plane home stopping only to personally cause capitalism and so that’s why I don’t think I’m going to vote for her, I just don’t feel comfortable personally” and then reacts with “Whoa whoa whoa that’s only what I heard, I don’t really know, I don’t know why you are getting upset with me, I’m not even sure it’s true to be honest, I don’t really pay close attention to politics” when I get irritated at them about their type of engagement.
TIL
It’s actually a strategy of spreading bullshit and then somehow blaming the person who asks you to back it up.
Yeah I’m kind of mixed on this concept, because there is nothing wrong with asking for a source and/or asking someone to explain their position. And it seems like a really bad idea to discourage people from asking questions like that.
Seems to me that’s the point of it: to stop people asking questions in good faith and then persisting on challenging lies and disinformation.
I understand where you’re coming from, but it’ll be easy to tell. Someone who’s sealioning will skip or “forget” points you’ve already made when they’re making their counter arguments. The conversation will be irritating and demanding.
Someone who genuinely wants to discuss and learn won’t wear on you that way. Their replies won’t have that “I outsmarted you and you’re an idiot” kind of feel. It’s hard to explain, but people can recognize the difference. I don’t think there’s a threat to honest debate here.
Yes, it’s possible to confuse sealions with people who are simply rude and obnoxious, but since I don’t like talking to either one, I don’t much care.
Forgetting points that were already made is something that I commonly encounter, but I just attribute that to people being generally forgetful. I don’t have any expectation of other people putting in much effort in rereading the whole thread before each response; so if someone forgets what was previously discussed, I’ll just respond with a summary and continue from there.
I think the key part is whether it’s being done in good faith or bad faith. Sometimes I ask a stupid question on Lemmy, but because I am honestly curious and not trying to get into a fight, and I usually accept the reply to me and don’t take it as an invite to get into a debate, I think people can tell I’m not sealioning.
If I replied “source?” for your comment right now, I’d be trolling. I almost certainly know that it is a bad idea to discourage sourcing information, and that should not be something I need a cited source for. That would probably be sealioning. Someone asking for a source on a meme I posted is probably genuinely curious and not sealioning.
And as per usual, judging intent can be difficult, especially when people (including me) come into a forum with my own sets of biases, pieces of knowledge I have that I incorrectly assume that everyone else knows, and absence of knowledge that others incorrectly assume everyone else knows. So people who are not sealioning might get mistaken for it just because they want a source on something they do not know that most people do. I see where you are coming from.
How can you tell good faith from bad faith?
For instance, can you tell if this question is asked in good faith or not? These things seem very hard know.
You usually only find out after repeatedly explaining, yet the interlocutor remaining unconvinced to a point where someone with good faith would’ve had enough information to work with.
That’s the thing, it takes time and Gish gallops you into proving ever more reduced assertions.
It’s very childish in nature, yet devis as it takes on the guide of scientific rational discourse.
Yeah context is definitely important
Source?
Yeah. I strongly dislike this whole classification that politely asking someone to back up what they said, or asking basic questions about it, is proof that you’re a terrible person and grounds for immediately quitting the conversation.
It also strikes me as relevant that the same people who say it is a sin, also tend to have no problem with overtly toxic behavior like slinging extreme abuse at anyone who disagrees with them or otherwise being an asshole.
I mean there are some keywords and phrases in the actual textbook definition here like “trolling”, “harrassment”, “incessant bad-faith invitations”. It’s a legitimate thing, but I almost always see it being used illegitimately by someone to attack another who is simply asking them to back up their statements. For example:
A: statement
B: What is your source for this statement?
A: sToP sEaLiOnIng!!!
I think the difference is that sealioning is a pattern of behavior, rather than just occasionally asking for a source. It describes the lack of intent to engage in good faith discussion and instead just is a method of trolling.
Yeah. There are genuine types of sophisticated trolling which involve pretending to be overtly polite while refusing to engage in any respect with the substance of what the other person’s saying, using politeness as a shield to sneak bullshit and bad-faith engagement into the discourse while making the other person look unreasonable if they start getting irritated about it.
In about 100% of cases where I’ve seen someone accused of “sealioning,” though, it is just that they are trying to engage with the conversation and ask for sources, if you have a certain way of approaching disagreement, that’s kryptonite to your argument and so the only response is to start whining about sealioning.
I have definitely come across what your first paragraph describes. Both sealioning and concern trolling definitely happens, on this site and on others.
Yeah. Probably my least favorite brand of it is when someone wanders into the comments to say, “I heard Kamala Harris wandered over to Gaza personally and shot some Palestinians just for fun, and then stopped by Tel Aviv to engage in some light foreplay with Netanyahu before getting back on a plane home stopping only to personally cause capitalism and so that’s why I don’t think I’m going to vote for her, I just don’t feel comfortable personally” and then reacts with “Whoa whoa whoa that’s only what I heard, I don’t really know, I don’t know why you are getting upset with me, I’m not even sure it’s true to be honest, I don’t really pay close attention to politics” when I get irritated at them about their type of engagement.
Do you have a source for this ? Just trying to understand
🤡
A lot of people don’t know what it is which the sealions use to their advantage so recognising it is a sealion’s kryptonite lol. glad it helped!