I’m in awe
This way of thinking is similar to a reverse great man theory. Like an evil man theory or something. That people are somehow entirely in control of the programming that gets put into their brains. That some choose to be evil, and others choose not to be. That is not the case clearly. The circumstances of ones birth are not irrelevant, and to say they are is ridiculous.
Indoctrination is a system for getting people to think a certain way. This system controls the material conditions of targets to shape their development. Those of us who don’t subscribe to those same beliefs arent somehow immune to it, and didn’t break the programming due to some sort of superior cognitive ability.
The reason some people don’t fall into it is because of their material conditions. Something in their life disrupted the propagandizing system, and caused a reaction in them that slowly grew into them seeing past it. It’s all based on the material conditions someone is in, and those have natural variations because no system is perfect.
It’s not a coincidence that most people who become anti-capitalists in the west are not wealthy, or have some other distinguishing feature that exposed the contradictions to them.
So while yes some people don’t end up getting brainwashed it’s not really because there’s anything different about how their brain works, or about them as a person. It’s just the luck of the draw.
I like to think that even if i was born rich, and exactly what society expected of me, and had a great life that I’d still be a communist, but if i look at it objectively i probably wouldnt be.
The world is shaped by its conditions, and so are the people in it. Now can some of those conditions include certain mental differences like increased empathy, or decreased empathy caused by genetic differences? Maybe. Or that could just be shaped by your conditions too, and learned over time.
Either way i think it’s important to note that people are simply products of their environment for the most part. So it’s entirely valid to say Israelis in general are genocidal freaks because that’s the environment they’ve created there. The statistical outliers are simply caused by the systemic brainwashing within Israel itself not being perfect. Something about those peoples conditions gave them an opportunity to see through it. Perhaps even gave them the ability to do so too.
Now that doesn’t mean we should say it’s out of their control. And they somehow arent concious of what theyre doing. They are. People who have been so thoroughly corrupted by genocidal and fascist ideology are like cancerous cells. Even if they are still technically human they must be excised for the safety of the whole. We can recognize though that they are simply corrupted, and that in some cases they can be saved. While still punishing them for their crimes, and having a 0 tolerance policy for that behavior.
It’s important though to recognize the root cause of things like the mass psychosis of a state like Israel. Because that is the only way we prevent it from repeating. And we can use the same methods for controlling someones conditions, and turning them into a fascist to instead turn them into a decent, and kind person. This is a large part of what China’s cultural revolution did. It restructured society to make it so the very culture was more likely to produce people who could function in the new society. Failing to do this successfully, and letting old cultural artifacts, and old institutions that breed fascist thought to continue existing would be dooming yourself to repeating history.
Failing to do this successfully, and letting old cultural artifacts, and old institutions that breed fascist thought to continue existing would be dooming yourself to repeating history.
Comparative study: Chinese Revolution versus post- US Civil War “Reconstruction”
GOOD Post!
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Okay the cat part is kinda cringe but they have a point: Israel can indoctrinate as many children into being murderous pedophiles as it wants but there will always be those who escape the programming. Most of them will probably end up as liberals who think they can UwUify Zionism into something progressive but some particularly based individuals will be able to see through that bullshit and recognize the white supremacist settler-colonialism for what it is: the same fascist beast that murdered their grandparents in gas chambers.
That being said it’s entirely fair to assume any Israeli you meet is not that self-aware. Most aren’t and probably will never be.
“Pacifist zionism” just means you don’t personally want to pull the trigger.
And mass brainwashing ain’t a thing; it’s very hard to convince someone to go against their material interests:
https://redsails.org/masses-elites-and-rebels/
People have a decolonial perspective or even become socialists because it is in their perceived material interests to do so. If one can’t make the case for this then there is no persuasion. That is what education here means.
And mass “brainwashing” ain’t a thing; it’s very hard to convince someone to go against their material interests
This is something I’ve been trying to tackle with, and I may just not be educated enough to get away from this line of thinking.
Are there not working class and immigrants who vote against their material interest: those that will remove their social benefits or those that will deport them for not being white? The line of thinking they tend to go through is that they aren’t the ones causing the problems of their society. Like citizens of Nazi Germany believing the reason for their country going down the drain was because of those of the Jewish faith. How about US president Lyndon B Johnson saying the quiet part out loud of the poorest white man will empty his pocket if you convince him he’s better than the poorest black man.
I think your emphasis on convince may help as the fact that Engels logically came to his conclusions about the defects of capitalism and where class society will go. Have there been more capitalists that have come to the same conclusions? I think I saw a headline about a CEO that has stated socialism is the only way for society not to fall, but I don’t remember who that was.
I’m rewatching Fallout with my wife, and there was a an implication that communists are merely cultists. One of the main characters of the show out rights says that then gets told “no you” with capitalists about to cause the nuclear annihilation because it’s in their material interest. This does convince the main character to go to a communist meeting, but there it is revealed where they know the main villain of the season from. During that reveal, there are people in a vault shown to be worshiping the villain in cultish behavior: participating in an orgy, drinking blood, chanting, and wiping the ashes of their enemies on their face; a flag is unraveled, with a design that is obviously trying to paint a “cult of personality”. This is all deliberate from the directing shots and writing. I guess I have to ask what was the logical process in the minds of the writers.
It is in the best interest of capitalists to paint history with a negative outlook on collectivism. It is in the best interest of the proletariat to question that retelling of history, but a lot don’t and just accept the version they are given. I know this example is just anecdotal, but my brother in law is a history major, poli sci minor that joined the navy to “see the world and get an affordable college education.” He took Soviet history courses from someone who has stated they are from the times of the USSR [could have been a child during the fall, I haven’t asked]. He’s read the diary of Che Guevarra - got dirty looks from his teacher for suggesting that as his reading. He’s working class with a retail job, is “fully aware of the atrocities of his country”, and yet, he’s not communist. He saw my copy of Liberalism - A Counter-History, asked what it was about, could see that Liberalism is the ideology of genocide, racism, slavery, and sexism. One of the times I’ve talked to him about Soviet history, I prodded with questions to see how much and what he retained, and he wanted to emphasis what a “monster” Stalin was - having killed “millions” of people. One time my wife and I got into a heated political argument, and I learned he’s talked about me negatively to her when she yelled “David is right, you’re nothing but a Stalin worshipping tankie.” I’ve shown him my collection of books, with one of the first being Losurdo’s book on Stalin. I told him that capitalist historians have a material interest to paint specifically Stalin as an inhumane monster and he bounced back with Yezhov’s execution and the erasure of him from that photograph. This was before my deeper dive into the history, but I told him that could have been a falsification as I don’t know how people were able to do that in the 1930s, and showed him Furr’s book on Yezhov. He showed no interest in reading anything I had, but has offered his books: one of his poli sci books that explain how the media is the 4th wing of the government, and one on how the US help shaped a shadow government in Japan after WWII. I wouldn’t be surprised of the reason why he smokes weed all the time is to help him block out the horrors of this capitalist ruled world.
My wife loves to watch a popular physician on YouTube, Dr. Mike. He recently came out with a video that was more of a retelling on how each of the “dictators” of history died. Surprisingly it does make mention of some capitalists like Christopher Columbus, but that’s not the egregious part. It definitely tried to paint communism as worse than fascism. With no mention of Hitlers kill count, but went of his way to declare Stalin’s as “6 million to 60 million.” This physician is from Russia, and, of course, moved to the US when he was very young. He’s a private practiced physician, so I can see how it is literally in his best interest to paint it this way. But, my wife, and other liberal watchers, won’t question what he’s rehashed as it confirms what they learned, or they just trust this popular celebrity doctor.
Apologies this is so long and for springing this on you. The idea of brainwashing has started to feel like Liberal projection, and I haven’t had an outlet on my thoughts. I’ll recollect my thoughts after reading the article you posted.
My wife loves to watch a popular physician on YouTube, Dr. Mike.
Are you and your wife aware that he is a committed Zionist who regularly goes to Israel, works for pro-Israeli groups and went on so-called “birthright” trips?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/doctor-mike-treats-birthright-participant-on-israel-bound-flight/
Also, he financially supports the fascist Ukrainian regime:
My wife, no. I heard on here that he was a Zionist, but hadn’t found much. Hadn’t heard anything about his support for Ukraine, but that’s not surprising. If I told my wife this, she’ll most likely ask why I must ruin the things she likes. I showed her brother the video of the lead singer of Radiohead blasting a pro-Palestinian protesting at one of their concerts. Not a peep from him - Radiohead is his all time favorite band.
Thank you for these sources.
she’ll most likely ask why I must ruin the things she likes
I’m sure your wife is a very nice person, but this is sort of like saying: “why did you have to ruin my favorite show by telling me the main actor is a serial killer IRL?”…
I get wanting to keep enjoying your entertainment treats, but there has to be some sort of line drawn somewhere. At the very least you should know what you are consuming.
I agree with the line of thinking. She is a very nice person; her ideal world is practically a communist society - no wars, peoples needs being met, everyone getting along regarding race, cultures, sexuality. But she breaks down as she believes her world is a dream and it can’t be a reality. She’s locked into Great Man theory and Liberal doomerism; believing that you just need the right people in the positions of power to get things changed such as AOC or Sanders. She does watch some political channels, most of them rad lib, but one of them [Humanist Report] has been good about showing both US political parties are working together to stop Zohan Mamdani. That same youtuber admitted to AOC deserving the bashing she was getting for being against the amendment to remove funding to Israel. She’s well aware how shitty Obama was to the rest of the world, but she falls for the curated image of 99% Hitler.
She’s so close… but
She proclaimed that politics is “fun now” after watching an episode of Stephen Colbert where Nancy Pelosi was one of the guests. She knows full well how Schumer and Pelosi are terrible people. I was so disgusted, I asked how can she believe these people. That was when she blamed me for “ruining things she enjoys.”
She didn’t want to give up her Starbucks until they started deteriorating their progressive image. Despite knowing full well how anti union they are. But when she was sad, I’d always buy her her favorite drink there.
Same goes for Amazon - until Bezos came out in support of Trump, we [I’m also not innocent here] bought from Amazon almost every week. Despite knowing their brutal working conditions…
When my wife and I first started dating, I was liberal. I was still eating Chik Fil A despite knowing that the ceo donates to gay conversion camps. I changed because I realized how right she was about how shitty it was to continue to give money to that company. Yet, years pass, and she’s said how she believes it is the consumers freedom to spend their money how they want, even if she disagrees. She’s Bi. I question if I hadn’t changed and refused to change, she would have still been with me; I don’t know how I feel about that. But then, I have to be introspective about why I’m still here.
People can change, but they have to want to change. They have to want to question what is presented in front of them.
In each of the examples you have presented it is likely in the short to medium term (at least) they feel that their capitalist society of choice provides them materially greater benefit than the alternatives.
As westerners, or those who seek to become one, we in general benefit from the exploitation of the global south; we are on the wrong side of imperialism (from a global south perspective) and it is through this power dynamic we seek narratives that give license for our bigotries.
What we consider the modern west - child labour laws, pension, universal health care, materity leave, sick pay, womens rights, universal education etc all came following the October revolution that created the USSR. Despite centuries of imperial wealth extracted and exploited from the global south it was only when workers in the west used the leverage of the USSR to threaten domestic revolution did they get these concessions:
https://redsails.org/concessions/
A faction of the capital class in the west saw the accelerated development and accepted that they would need to invest in “human capital” to catch up - the most famous example is FDR’s New Deal. And started reversing these concessions with the fall of the USSR.
This is not withstanding that >= 75% Nazis were defeated by the USSR and they helped overthrow various formal colonisers around the world.
In other words the likes of your brother-in-law owe their lives to Stalin.
They are not stupid. They intelligently seek narratives that gives them license to justify their bigotry. It is very difficult to convince them (though maybe not impossible) because you will need to give them an alternative where they will benefit within the short to medium time greater than what the current system offers them.
Remember everyone could look up the same information you do, and when they do not - especially when you have even offered them a chance to educate themselves - you then have to consider there is something larger at play beyond our ability to “convince”.
Marxism is a science and our theory of political change cannot be we are “smarter” than others.
I do not have an answer to the solution. Men and women more intelligent and charismatic than we have tried and failed in the west. Even Marx thought the first workers’ state would come would come out of the nations of greatest concentration of capital of the West but it did not come to be.
I suspect the answer will at least involve a deep statistical analysis of western populations to see who will benefit from the overthrow of USAmerican Imperialism within the short term and therefore has the greatest revolutionary potential.
Marxism is neither workerism nor populism.
I suspect while western communists try and fail to build mass movements based on scientific socialism the Global South will force the West’s material conditions as they increase their leverage, especially given the events of the past 2 years.
The basic call to action looks something like this:
Stop accusing the masses of being “brainwashed.” Stop treating them as cattle, stop attempting to rouse them into action by scolding them with exposure to “unpleasant truths.”
Accept instead that they have been avoiding those truths for a reason. You were able to break through the propaganda barrier, and so could they if they really wanted to. Many of these people see you as the fool, and in many cases not without reason.
Understanding people as intelligent beings, craft a political strategy that convincingly makes the case for why they and their lot are very likely to benefit from joining your political project. Not in some utopian infinite timescale, but soon.
If you cannot make this case, then forget about convincing the person in question. Focus instead on finding other people to whom such a case can be made. This will lead you directly to class analysis.
In each of the examples you have presented it is likely in the short to medium term (at least) they feel that their capitalist society of choice provides them materially greater benefit than the alternatives.
I think you’re right. Joining the US Navy despite “knowing the atrocities of the nation” is definitely a priority of his material interest. But I think it’s because he’s fallen for the idea that a capitalist society can have the interest of the working class in mind, because of the existence of FDR and the Nordic models of capitalism. However, I do not know if he is aware of the Nordic models getting their public sector privatized, with right winged politicians started to fill their parliament .
As westerners, or those who seek to become one, we in general benefit from the exploitation with the global south; we are on the wrong side of imperialism (from a global south perspective) and it is through this power dynamic we seek narratives that give license for our bigotries as westerners.
I do see that there is a material benefit for the average citizen in the imperial core to not thwart or question the MIC or western imperialism. I do know that some of the most vocal supporters of Nazi Germany were the petite bourgeois. I think I can see my BiL being aware that he materially benefits from western imperialism with the US government giving him disability for getting part of his toe blown off… Being active in trying to dismantle the system, or maybe even just questioning the system, could be seen as a direct negative to his material interests. Before knowing where my beliefs were, my wife had told him how I was becoming active in the political organizations. He said he was proud of me. And I can’t shake how much of a disappointment he is.
What we consider the modern west - child labour laws, pension, universal health care, materity leave, sick pay, womens rights, universal education etc all came following the October revolution that created the USSR.
I’ve told my BiL that without the USSR’s existence, women would not have gotten as many rights as they did in the US. His only response was just “no.” Western education always focuses on the deaths of a communist society, but never the advances in progressive ideals. Conversely, they don’t emphasize the deaths caused by western imperialism. That 100 mil death by communism lie can always be countered with 145 mil dead by British imperialism with colonizing India. But thinking that way continues to reinforce how western education emphasizes knowing history like bullet points, instead of knowing and explaining why, who, how. Once people start questioning why, they tend to move away from thinking capitalist ideology… unless they have no empathy **or ** they have a material interest.
A faction of the capital class in the west saw the accelerated development and accepted that they would need to invest in “human capital” to catch up - the most famous example is FDR’s New Deal. And started reversing these concessions with the fall of the USSR.
I think he just hasn’t gotten to the line of thinking that concessions can always be removed. Or he does know and just falls into the Great Men theory or class collaboration is possible.
They are not stupid. They intelligently seek narratives that gives them license to justify their bigotry. It is very difficult to convince them (though maybe not impossible) because you will need to give them an alternative where they will benefit within the short to medium time greater than what the current system offers them.
People can, and material benefit is absolutely one of them as to why they don’t. Some people just don’t think to try. I didn’t. Before my political descent from liberalism, I did have a conversation with my BiL that I couldn’t understand why there were people who were mourning Stalin’s death. I know there was more to the conversation, but all I can remember is him going on about how the famine of 1950s was due to communist thinking that plants can grow better collectively. I started shedding my liberalism when I came across r/ShitLiberalsSay. They emphasize and paint liberal talking points and thinking in a light I hadn’t thought to consider. It made me question what I knew and I sought out Liberalism by Losurdo.
Marxism is neither workerism nor populism. And I suspect while western communists try and fail to build mass movements based on scientific socialism the Global South will force the West’s material conditions as they increase the leverage, especially given the events of the past 2 years.
Wouldn’t this be a good argument as to Russia having an even higher chance of going back to socialism with the Russia - Ukraine war? Outside of the people who lived during the times of the USSR remembering their lives as much better before the restoration of capitalism, the reach of Russian imperialism is not as vast as western imperialism. Overthrowing capitalism should be easier in comparison to the other capitalist countries.
On a side note, am I wrong in thinking Russian imperialism is a thing? Russian capitalists have a material interest in removing the western backed politicians from Ukraine, not just for their safety from Nato, but also because the Maiden Revolution removed the Russian sympathetic / backed politicians and markets being sold to western capitalists.
Stop accusing the masses of being “brainwashed.” Stop treating them as cattle, stop attempting to rouse them into action by scolding them with exposure to “unpleasant truths.”
Accept instead that they have been avoiding those truths for a reason. You were able to break through the propaganda barrier, and so could they if they really wanted to. Many of these people see you as the fool, and in many cases not without reason.
Understanding people as intelligent beings, craft a political strategy that convincingly makes the case for why they and their lot are very likely to benefit from joining your political project. Not in some utopian infinite timescale, but soon.
These are all helpful for me in reevaluating my understanding of the workings of class society. I’ve been falling behind on my Marx and Engles reading
I’ll admit, I have a good job in the imperial core: software engineer. I engineer a website that helps companies estimate the parts needed for a construction job. Saying that out loud does make me question whether I fall in the labor aristocracy as the job isn’t blatantly benefiting the imperial core… Am I wrong where I stand in the class society? I do not own any capital, and I do not plan to own anything that can help me make money off of someone else’s labor.
I think I’m coming to the realization that I haven’t shed my liberalism fully. This line of thinking is starting to reek of idealism, and I think I understand incorrectly how early communists got to where they were logically. It is a material benefit for the proletariat to overthrow the bourgeois and take back the means of production. It is a material benefit to rid your country of western imperialists and help other countries do the same. I think outside of these reasonings, I sometimes have a hard time being convinced of the logical conclusions from those that had a beneficial job in Tsarist / Capitalist society such as Lenin and Castro being a lawyer in a bourgeois society.
Thank you for this conversation.
Thank you.
As marxism-leninism has evolved over the years our understanding of the proleteriat vs bourgoisie dynamic has become more refined (as a science should); the bourgoisie of a peoples subjugated under colonisation could be part of the revolutionary national liberation struggle, the western proleteriat could engage in class collaboration against the global south proleteriat, capitalist countries could form part of the anti-imperialist block against US hegemony, immigrant proleteriat as part of Western supremacist assimilation could turn fascist against their own people from back home, women could turn against non-binary as they see self-validation in occupying the privileged space of the cis-white-man.
Given the above chances are us Westerners are MLs by serendipity. We are right to ask ourselves if we are labour aristocrats (a rule of thumb defnition I have come across that is useful is that labour aristocrats care about property value, especially when we consider the proleteriat were once considered the most revolutionary as they were propertyless) rather than simply “proleteriat” - it allows to better engage in class betrayal (ie labour aristocracy due to income and status align themselves effectively with the bourgoisie, and on the global stage against the global south proleteriat; it is a betrayal against this dynamic I want to highlight) where appropriate. And we need to study the successes of the Global South so we can learn their lessons.
(Regarding Russia: all capitalist countries given enough time will have to resort to imperialism. However, in this timeline imperialism currently primarily Western, significantly USAmerican, and given European and American aggression it has forced Russia’s hand to integrate more deeply a mutually sustainable development with the Global South. All capitalism will collapse given its internal contradictions and if it does in a way that does not end humanity then global socialism is inevitable.
Regarding socdem politics: their bottom line is to share the loot of imperialism more equitably)
What’s this purple cat nonsense?
Mewtwo from the Pokémon movie
What? That pikachu thing? Like Detective Pikachu I think?
Voiced by Bill Nye the Science Guy so you know he is smart and correct.
oh shit, i totally thought it was a reference to Alice in Wonderland… which i have not read or watched in its entirety
i mean, i agree with the cat guy in the part that being jewish is not immediately synonymous with sionism. it’s not so reddit for me
It’s not about her being Jewish, it’s about her being Israeli. Those are two different things.
EEK! The cat really went hard with that quote.
Are they talking about the Cheshire Cat? I don’t know any other purple cats.
