- cross-posted to:
- world@quokk.au
- cross-posted to:
- world@quokk.au
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Lammy, speaking to the Lords international relations select committee, said the UK wanted to take the step when it would have an impact on the ground and not at a symbolic moment, adding that it was his sad conclusion that some European countries’ recognition of Palestine recently had not had any effect.
Yeah no shit. You are providing Israel with arms and you run spy flights for them to help bomb Gaza faster. How about you stop this you war criminal twats? Maybe then the recognition would also have an effect.
Realistically, the support will stop if there is the impression that this will bring peace to the region - and not only enable those who want to destroy Israel to regain the upper hand and restart their aggression.
As long as Netanyahu is able to point on an enemy that aims to destroy Israel, he will get support for his war. Not because they like the way he does it but because they will never allow Israel to again be faced by superior neighbours poised to destroy it, as experienced in its early years.
My guess is: if Gaza rids itself of Hamas and their goal to destroy Israel, Netanyahu will have a hard time finding war support in Europe.
So Palestinians can be subjected to genocide but any risk at all to Israelis is completely unacceptable. I see, that makes complete sense.
We’re not talking about “any risk at all to Israelis”, we’re talking about the threat of complete annihilation, the very same genocidal aspirations you see on Netanyahu’s side. Obviously, that’ doesn’t excuse the way Netanyahu is waging this war. But that’s what keeps the fundamental support from countries such as Germany going. And that’s what’s needs to be fixed before “the West” will actually expose Israel to pressure threatening their security. As long as people still want to wipe Israel from the map, the support will remain intact. Realistically, that’s something one can’t get past, regardless of where one stands in this conflict.
Okay even if we take that extremely bad faith argument at face value, there are countless ways to protect Israeli Jews from the genocide you’re talking about (which no major Palestinian group actually wants, to be clear) other than unconditional support, so if the West actually cared they’d stop supporting Israel and find a way to prevent the potential genocide of Jews they’d figure something out and not support the ongoing real genocide of Palestinians.
extremely bad faith argument
I’m not trying to give a bad faith argument here. I also don’t want to apologise the way Netanyahu is waging his war, just to be clear. I just want to point out why it is that a country such as Germany realistically is supporting Israel. This support was born from a historical responsibility but also from a dire necessity given the amount of aggression Israel was facing from its surroundings from the start on.
Had Israel not received this support from “the West” and given the sheer amounts of adversaries it faced and faces, it simply wouldn’t exist anymore, I hope we can agree on that. So that’s one of the fundamental problems in this region that needs fixing should this conflict ever come to an end.
to protect Israeli Jews from the genocide you’re talking about (which no major Palestinian group actually wants, to be clear)
Hamas’ goal still is the annihilation of Israel and - as shown in October '23 - its population. Iran, having the same goal, is also actively supporting groups in the region to destroy Israel. Hate Netanyahu or illegal Israeli settlers all you want, but this needs to be fixed. Given that this threat to Israel wouldn’t perish if Israel were to become weaker under external pressure but instead would probably grow and “seize its opportunity”, realistically there is very little chance for countries such as Germany to end their support, even if they oppose the way and purpose of Netanyahus war that left the scope of rightful self-defense quite a while ago. I don’t think its bad faith to try to understand the motivation behind actions, even if I criticise them.
but also from a dire necessity given the amount of aggression Israel was facing from its surroundings from the start on.
Have you asked yourself why Israel has and had so many adversaries? Hint: Fucking ethnic cleansing.
Had Israel not received this support from “the West” and given the sheer amounts of adversaries it faced and faces, it simply wouldn’t exist anymore
Yeah why is that a bad thing?
Hamas’ goal still is the annihilation of Israel and - as shown in October '23 - its population.
33% of people killed on October 7th were military targets, and that’s with Israeli friendly fire (which we know happened because they, among other things, bombed houses full of Israeli civilians to prevent them from becoming hostages) so that argument doesn’t hold up. Compare with what happens when the IDF rolls into town. That aside find me a quote from Iran or Hamas from this decade actually calling for the genocide of Jews, because I can find plenty from Israeli officials.
And again, there are a multitude of different ways to protect Jews from the genocide you say will happen other than fully supporting the genocide of Palestinians. This is a false dichotomy.
Yeah why is that a bad thing?
Just to be clear: you’re seriously asking why it is a bad thing of a country is annihilated by its neighbours?
33% of people killed on October 7th were military targets
Your point being? That it’s tough luck for the remaining allegedly 66% civilian “targets”? Wouldn’t you agree that Hamas showed a very high level of brutality, also against civilians - think Nova Festival Massacre?
calling for the genocide of Jews
We were talking about the annihilation of Israel here, something both parties still desire.
way too little, way too late
David Lammy is the UK foreign secretary
