Airbus’ activation of the “Helicopter 0” test bed, the consolidation of three flying prototypes at Marignane, and preparations for an Albacete assembly line together indicate that the Tiger MkIII effort is entering its most decisive engineering period. If the transition from ground integration to flight testing proceeds as planned toward 2026, France and Spain will be positioned to field a more connected Tiger configuration aligned with emerging requirements for networked operations and crewed–uncrewed cooperation, while maintaining a joint industrial base to support the fleet through the next stage of its service life.
Doesn’t the tiger shine with a bad reputation in all user countries? It is known to be a maintenance and availability nightmare and barely flies. Germany is tossing it, Australia is tossing it…
Can a captain explain why further upgrades are considered economic?
edit brain flub the AW249 Fenice is very far along in active development, I think my points still stand. Why did it take until the 2020s for Europe to field an actual equivalent to the AH-64?
I don’t know as much about the Tiger but Europe not having an domestically produced attack helicopter is a major issue given how modern warfare has decidedly centered the attack helicopter as the nexus of air defense and combined arms with manned and unmanned platforms.
The AH-64 simply outclasses the Tiger, the AH-1Z Cobra is more similar but is still far superior of a platform both in sophistication and with respect to the fact that it has been repeatedly battle tested and iterated throughout the aircraft’s life.
Unfortunately for Europe the Ka-42 and Mi-28 also represent deadlier and more mature helicopter programs than Europe can field until the AW249 Fenice is operational. Europe is essentially bullshitting the attack helicopter role right now with Lakotas/H145 scout helicopters except for Poland and the UK which wisely invested in AH-64s.
My conclusion is thus that no the Tiger is probably not a great deal but also I consider it existential Europe get serious about making an actually useful attack helicopter and stop listening to internet posters decrying the end of helicopters like idiots lol.
If it was me? I would buy those AH-1Z and UH-1Y helicopters in a heartbeat and throw the Tiger in the trash, even given how batshit crazy the US has become there is just no comparison and the production que is totally clear for a major order of AH-1Z and UH-1Y helicopters. I also think it was a very good idea for Poland to invest in a huge order of AH-64s.
Honestly it mystifies me why Europe and a lot of the rest of the world looked at the development of the AH-64 and AH-1 through the end of the cold war and thought “Nah those are obsolete, we don’t need to focus on those kind of assets” it might be one of the biggest unforced errors in military development in the last 30 years besides Russia never addressing fundamental issues with its armor and then starting a massive war. Look at the original design goals of the AH-64 Longbow program, they nearly perfectly describe what warfare has become decades later.
Honestly I think the difference is the US military understands the concept of cavalry better than Europe and understands how helicopters inherently are cavalry and how that radically and irrevocably changes warfare, drones are an echo of the same truth but minaturized to the perfect size for an attack helicopter to hunt down…
Helicopters aren’t a spice you add in or just light scout platforms, they change the basic rhythm, spatial extent and pace of war, so do drones.
a) take a look at the Leonardo AW249 fenice, b) only Germany is substituting the Tiger with the Airbus light jokie-i-copter.
facepalm of course yeah that is a huge project to watch! Definitely at the top of the priority list for European defense and security interests to push that program forward!
I think it slipped my mind and merged with the Tiger in my head, idk but yes absolutely the AW249 is massively important I shouldn’t have missed it lol.
The Leonardo Helicopters AW249 is to be a modern attack helicopter. It is intended to be more survivable and have a greater offensive capability than the Mangusta, being provisioned for greater autonomy, as well as to use the latest available digital communications and battlefield management systems.[5] Amongst other abilities, the mission system will be capable of remotely operating unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV)s, and incorporate numerous situational awareness aids as to reduce pilot workload and increase safety.[9] The AW249 is to have an open architecture, easing the integration of mission systems from various suppliers with the onboard avionics.[10] The AW249 is to be equipped with electro-optical countermeasures and other self-defence systems, such as the DIRCM (Direct InfraRed Counter Measures) ELT\577 QUIRIS and the ELT\162 radar warning receiver.[13]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_Helicopters_AW249_Fenice
The AW249 is a worthy response to the AH-64, it only falls short in not having quite the same payload weight capacity but it is similar enough.
Edit I am having trouble confirming the AW249 has a Longbow equivalent radar? If it doesn’t the AW249 is not anywhere near the same kind of aircraft as the AH-64 Apache. I expect the AW249 will have this capacity but it is an extremely important detail.
Doesn’t matter.
We agree on importance and that the Airbus H145M is a joke. If CAS is needed German Bundeswehr must hope for the Poles, Brits or Americans to be around.
Edit: I hope Germany opts for the Leonardo helo, too.
The thing that makes the H145M not a joke is the Lakota is the trainer helicopter for the Apache so Germany could always sidestep into the Apache if European attack helicopter programs fail, but I agree yes it is a light helicopter repurporsed as an attack helicopter because the people in charge won’t think they want an attack helicopter until they desperately need them.
I bet it will excel in light reconnaissance roles. The electronics and the instrument will be top notch.
Also, working from a stand off distance might work. But it is not hardened and the smallest AA or manpad will hunt it down.
https://www.heliopsmag.com/antares/articles/lakota-scouting-for-a-role/
The German military has taken the surprising step of informing its French and Spanish partners that it will withdraw from the upcoming Mid Life Update (MLU) to the Tiger AH. Instead, they intend to purchase a mixed fleet of UAS, loitering munitions and weaponised H145M helicopters. These H145Ms, similar to the LUH-72B standard, will have the ‘H-Force’ sensor and weapons system available. H-Force is a scalable capability, enabling the H145M to carry simple guns and unguided rockets as a cost-efficient baseline, but as improved sensors are added (for example, EO/IR turrets, Helmet Mounted Display and Cuing Systems, and Laser Designators) then more sophisticated weapons, such as Laser Hellfire, APKWS and even IR Air to Air missiles (eg Mistral or Stinger) can be added. Ballistic Protection (BP) can be fitted, and the hard pointed ‘wings’ could also be considered for the fitment of ASE, such as Terma’s Modular ASE (MASE) pod. The MASE can be configured with a number of radar, missile and laser warning systems, and can carry a full suite of decoys.
Yeah the quote I pulled will age like milk and Germany will be inveitably forced to restart the process of acquiring actual attack helicopters in the future. Like yes… helicopters are useful when used like that but they are more useful when they are attack helicopters designed from the ground up through and through.
Not having a turret mounted direct fire weapon alone is potentially an alarming weakness to swarms of UAVs, if anything I would think militaries would desperately be trying to add turreted machine guns and lasers to helicopters not pursuing helicopters without them designed in from the get go…
Does the Fenice have the capability to mount a radar like the Longbow? I thought I saw they don’t have plans for that but I am having trouble confirming either way. If not that also seems absurdly shortsighted to me. The longbow radar is literally the most essential element of the recipe for a AH-64 or AH-1Z, I hope they don’t shoot themselves in the foot and not include a similar system on the AW249.
For anyone else who is curious this is a good review of the various different attack helicopter programs, I certainly needed it lol things are moving so fast.
https://euro-sd.com/2023/04/articles/30737/attack-helicopters-21st-century-combat-systems/
Also see this article for info on AW249
Just to highlight how much the Italian Army Aviation will receive an improved platform, the comparison between the AH-129D, the latest evolution of the Mangusta, and the AW249 shows +91% maximum take-off mass, +155% payload, +59% range, and +12% maximum speed, all this with a marginally increased footprint.
https://www.edrmagazine.eu/leonardo-unveils-the-aw249-fenice-the-new-italian-army-combat-helicopter
