I think this is a bit of an oversimplification. Most people have a perception bias for “bad” people, but it’s justified because the potential outcomes of being a victim of a bad person are astronomical. So it doesn’t matter if the vast majority of people are “good”, because a single encounter with a bad person can be catastrophic, so it makes logical sense to be wary if you know there are any amount of bad people around.
Now of course this instinct gets manipulated by the media and politicians and all that, but the initial instinct is perfectly reasonable, imo.
Yes, there’s the perception bias that makes absolute evolutionary sense when you deal with the ‘lion or stone’ problem.
However we as species dominate the planet because we cooperate. Religions, national states etc. are all imaginary sets of rules to ensure even more efficient cooperation in large groups.
And here’s the problem: If you meet a new person with distrust he/she becomes more likely to actually act according to your expectation. Given that premise is true an individual distrusting each an everyone weakens its evolutionary fitness as it misses out many cooperation opportunities.
Another point: If we want to counter the assholes plan of monoplizing this worlds ressources in their few hands we urgently need to learn cooperation outside of state controles rule sets again… this sentiment is one of the core problems why the US is just taking Trumps shit and its population is far away from taking action: They’re devided and told to not trust anyone anymore. On this basis no revolution can be build.
These are valid points. Cooperative groups outcompete non-cooperative groups and humans have evolved around that. But that aspect of human nature evolved in a radically different context to the modern world. Cooperation evolved when humans lived in small groups at the scale where everyone knew each other and “bad” actions were always known about by everyone in the group and usually punished/discouraged in some way. People outside that group were always viewed with suspicion and wariness. The human brain is hardwired to identify and categorise everyone into “us” or “them” groups.
When human groups grew to the size where it was normal to interact with strangers then that radically changed the way that human cooperation had to work, the rules are very different than the ones we originally evolved with. As you said, organised religion and governance specifically grew out of the need to manage this. In a large society with ubiquitous anonymity, it is much more feasible to be non-cooperative and still be successful in an evolutionary sense (i.e. have plenty of surviving offspring). Modern human societies, with specialisation of labour and market economies, enable this and I think can be argued even encourage “bad”/non-cooperative behaviour in many ways.
we urgently need to learn cooperation outside of state controles rule
I completely agree. But it’s difficult, because forming trust with a bunch of strangers goes against human nature. You need to find a way to get people’s brains to identify those strangers as an “us” instead of a “them”.
I dunno, did you see how people acted during COVID? I didn’t need propaganda to convince me the people around me were assholes. Not really looking to get into it, just: misanthropy isn’t as difficult as we’d all like it to be.
As often in life the picture isn’t black and white.
The way I see it:
Most people (~ 80 % or more) are decent. However we have egoists, narcissists and opportunists in our society. Unfortunately our current economic and societal system cultivate this sentiment and destill the most reckless undividuals into the highest roles (corrupt politicans, billionaires) where they assume everyone’s jusg like them (who likes to see himself as outlier?) and hence make rules as if we were all assholes. With the benefit that it justifies their shitty behaviour… becaus ,everyone else would do the same in my position". Well I say most people won’t.
Durint COVID 10 - 20 % assholes where completly sufficient to empty stores out of greed (there never was an actual supply shortage after all). I once saw a woman in an expensive SUV carry a whole trunk of toilet paper to her house… which of course is anecdotal but fits my narrative.
On the other hand I saw many more people taking care of each other when going into isolation for example… in crysis the majortiy deepens its cooperation since it always more efficient than wasting ressouces in competition imho.
That there are decent people doesn’t change that a few that aren’t can asymmetrically harm others. With disease, intention doesn’t even have to enter the equation. COVID wasn’t just hoarding, but causing death. Millions of people. I’m not talking about toilet paper.
With guns and mass shootings a thousand people being good doesn’t stop the shooter. Even in smaller environments completely separated from systemic forces, bad behavior exists. I’ve known too many people that have been abused or assaulted. You probably do, too, even if you aren’t aware.
That bad behavior is used as an excuse to exercise power is one thing, but to minimize it to the point of ignoring it is a position that lacks nuance. Anyway, won’t be responding further. We won’t convince each other, especially not with the kind of arguments you’ve presented.
We all take risk… calculated risk. In life even in the “modern world” we have to take risk. In the imperial core the risk is high and the global variable is waste fraud and abuse. We are reactionary. We like preemptive strikes. We don’t trust anyone. That is how we survive. With a smile on our faces we sell our lies. I would never trust a yankkkeee and I am a yankkkeee. The crime is relative to the have and have nots. The top steals so does the bottom. We take what we want and to hell with the rest. We are scoundrels pointing fingers at scoundrels. It is truly a sorry sight. The international security elite knowingly or unknowingly participate in divide and rule strategy for the capitalist class all around the world. The united states is not a safe place. All this ambition leads to no where. In the words of US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo: “I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole. We had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment.”
I think this is indeed a feature of the modern US system… and also the reason it will be succeeded by other societies not or less impended in their cooperation.
Cooperation beats competition in the long run any time.
Hot take:
Humans in general are better than their reputation.
Take two:
,Humans bad" is propaganda by the ruling class to justify authority and rulership.
I think this is a bit of an oversimplification. Most people have a perception bias for “bad” people, but it’s justified because the potential outcomes of being a victim of a bad person are astronomical. So it doesn’t matter if the vast majority of people are “good”, because a single encounter with a bad person can be catastrophic, so it makes logical sense to be wary if you know there are any amount of bad people around.
Now of course this instinct gets manipulated by the media and politicians and all that, but the initial instinct is perfectly reasonable, imo.
I’d say it’s not reasonable.
Yes, there’s the perception bias that makes absolute evolutionary sense when you deal with the ‘lion or stone’ problem.
However we as species dominate the planet because we cooperate. Religions, national states etc. are all imaginary sets of rules to ensure even more efficient cooperation in large groups. And here’s the problem: If you meet a new person with distrust he/she becomes more likely to actually act according to your expectation. Given that premise is true an individual distrusting each an everyone weakens its evolutionary fitness as it misses out many cooperation opportunities.
Another point: If we want to counter the assholes plan of monoplizing this worlds ressources in their few hands we urgently need to learn cooperation outside of state controles rule sets again… this sentiment is one of the core problems why the US is just taking Trumps shit and its population is far away from taking action: They’re devided and told to not trust anyone anymore. On this basis no revolution can be build.
These are valid points. Cooperative groups outcompete non-cooperative groups and humans have evolved around that. But that aspect of human nature evolved in a radically different context to the modern world. Cooperation evolved when humans lived in small groups at the scale where everyone knew each other and “bad” actions were always known about by everyone in the group and usually punished/discouraged in some way. People outside that group were always viewed with suspicion and wariness. The human brain is hardwired to identify and categorise everyone into “us” or “them” groups.
When human groups grew to the size where it was normal to interact with strangers then that radically changed the way that human cooperation had to work, the rules are very different than the ones we originally evolved with. As you said, organised religion and governance specifically grew out of the need to manage this. In a large society with ubiquitous anonymity, it is much more feasible to be non-cooperative and still be successful in an evolutionary sense (i.e. have plenty of surviving offspring). Modern human societies, with specialisation of labour and market economies, enable this and I think can be argued even encourage “bad”/non-cooperative behaviour in many ways.
I completely agree. But it’s difficult, because forming trust with a bunch of strangers goes against human nature. You need to find a way to get people’s brains to identify those strangers as an “us” instead of a “them”.
I dunno, did you see how people acted during COVID? I didn’t need propaganda to convince me the people around me were assholes. Not really looking to get into it, just: misanthropy isn’t as difficult as we’d all like it to be.
As often in life the picture isn’t black and white. The way I see it: Most people (~ 80 % or more) are decent. However we have egoists, narcissists and opportunists in our society. Unfortunately our current economic and societal system cultivate this sentiment and destill the most reckless undividuals into the highest roles (corrupt politicans, billionaires) where they assume everyone’s jusg like them (who likes to see himself as outlier?) and hence make rules as if we were all assholes. With the benefit that it justifies their shitty behaviour… becaus ,everyone else would do the same in my position". Well I say most people won’t.
Durint COVID 10 - 20 % assholes where completly sufficient to empty stores out of greed (there never was an actual supply shortage after all). I once saw a woman in an expensive SUV carry a whole trunk of toilet paper to her house… which of course is anecdotal but fits my narrative.
On the other hand I saw many more people taking care of each other when going into isolation for example… in crysis the majortiy deepens its cooperation since it always more efficient than wasting ressouces in competition imho.
That there are decent people doesn’t change that a few that aren’t can asymmetrically harm others. With disease, intention doesn’t even have to enter the equation. COVID wasn’t just hoarding, but causing death. Millions of people. I’m not talking about toilet paper.
With guns and mass shootings a thousand people being good doesn’t stop the shooter. Even in smaller environments completely separated from systemic forces, bad behavior exists. I’ve known too many people that have been abused or assaulted. You probably do, too, even if you aren’t aware.
That bad behavior is used as an excuse to exercise power is one thing, but to minimize it to the point of ignoring it is a position that lacks nuance. Anyway, won’t be responding further. We won’t convince each other, especially not with the kind of arguments you’ve presented.
I agree on that… especially as what you wrote seems only remotely connected to the argument you intend to answer to. Have a nice day, nonetheless!
We all take risk… calculated risk. In life even in the “modern world” we have to take risk. In the imperial core the risk is high and the global variable is waste fraud and abuse. We are reactionary. We like preemptive strikes. We don’t trust anyone. That is how we survive. With a smile on our faces we sell our lies. I would never trust a yankkkeee and I am a yankkkeee. The crime is relative to the have and have nots. The top steals so does the bottom. We take what we want and to hell with the rest. We are scoundrels pointing fingers at scoundrels. It is truly a sorry sight. The international security elite knowingly or unknowingly participate in divide and rule strategy for the capitalist class all around the world. The united states is not a safe place. All this ambition leads to no where. In the words of US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo: “I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole. We had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment.”
I think this is indeed a feature of the modern US system… and also the reason it will be succeeded by other societies not or less impended in their cooperation.
Cooperation beats competition in the long run any time.