Donald Trump’s threats to carry out mass bombing of civilian infrastructure in Iran present US military officers with a dilemma: disobey orders or help commit war crimes.
It is an urgent matter for the US chain of command. In an expletive-laden threat, Trump set a Tuesday 8pm Washington time deadline for the Iranian government to open the strait of Hormuz or face “Power Plant Day, and Bridge Day, all wrapped up in one”.
There is little debate among legal experts that such an attack on the life-supporting infrastructure for 93 million Iranians would constitute a war crime.
“Such rhetorical statements – if followed through – would amount to the most serious war crimes – and thus the president’s statements place service members in a profoundly challenging situation,” two former judge advocate general (JAG) officers, Margaret Donovan and Rachel VanLandingham wrote on the website Just Security on Monday.
“As former uniformed military lawyers who advised targeting operations, we know the president’s words run counter to decades of legal training of military personnel and risk placing our warfighters on a path of no return.”
That’s not a “dilemma.” You don’t commit war crimes. You absolutely have the right and the duty to refuse illegal orders
I genuinely didn’t expect that level of “both sides”-ism from The Guardian.
Ah yes the nazi dilemma.
We solved that one in nuremberg. How is it even a question ffs
Been a long time since then. It ain’t that they forgot, it’s that they think it shouldn’t be their problem
I’ve had people tell me that the soldiers firing missiles or piloting drones don’t necessarily know that it’s a kindergarten they’ve been ordered to obliterate, and sure I can see that being the case, but don’t they see the reports later? And then go back to work and bomb the next thing they’re told to?
Sure. But they already fired or demoted most of the military leadership that wasn’t on board with following absolutely any order, legal or otherwise. So now the “dilemma” falls mostly to lower-level officers and enlisted.
Officers now have to decide whether or not to commit war crimes? Wow, that is a dilemma, I wouldn’t want to be forced to make that decision. This article does a really good job humanizing their struggle, you can’t help but feel bad for them.
aren’t they illegal orders?
the kind of orders where following them would be committing war crimes
These types of articles are annoying at this point – the sort of appeal to morality things, based on essentially dead ‘world order’ concepts. Even when there was a quasi functional set of agreements in place, America just veto’d any attempt to hold it accountable anyhow. International law, or any law really, is largely based on some sort of ‘force’ that gives it authority – in a country, that force is generally the state/police, and internationally it was generally the US-lead coalition of western nations. That authority died in 2025.
We’ve already seen the USA/Hegseth drag all his generals into a room and tell them to not be ‘burdened by rules of engagement’, encouraging them to commit war crimes openly in order to instill terror in others. Anyone who disagreed with his speech was basically shown the door. This was like a year ago even, it’s not ‘new’.
The USA basically shredded any moral dilemmas/debates in the process, and burnt the soft power they’d been cultivating for decades/generations in early 2025. What’s the point of saying it’s wrong based on an old, defunct system that they’ve already abandoned? If anything, the American right wing will likely cheer that they’re getting these sorts of angsty pearl clutching responses from the left / foreign liberal powers. Trump quite literally bragged about America’s war crimes in Venezuela during his state of the union address, cracking jokes to which all the republicans laughed and applauded. Trump’s threats about Iran’s civilian infrastructure, and the bets on whether he’ll drop nukes – these are things that the right wing / Americans want to see happen. They think it’s right to do it.
So really, the article shouldn’t be about “Oh No!! International Law may be violated!”, but rather, “Why should people care about international law being violated, when they’ve already asserted that they disagree with that law and its results?”. Like if/when Trump drops nukes on Irans civilian power plants/water desalination plants etc… what then? Is there some sort of accountability that’s gonna suddenly show up? Prolly not.
the solution would be an UN operation against the united states. They can’t take all of us out.
The international order did not die in 2025, or rather it was on its death bed since long before then. But yes I agree.
The international order did not die in 2025, or rather it was on its death bed since long before then. But yes I agree.
I agree with your assessment and i share your fury about the situation.
One observation: repetition works. It may be hard to fathom, but lots of people voted for trump without any understanding of the world. lots of his supporters are evil, but some are stupid/ignorant/confused/misguided. trump’s support is falling - i won’t rule out that labeling his crimes and repeating the message that trump is a criminal may be working.
placing our warfighters on a path of no return
Can we go back to calling them soldiers?
You can call them service members, implying they are selflessly performing some vital service for us! You must spread the propaganda through deliberate misuse of language!
Protecting our freedom! From, uh, who is at this time, Iran? That doesn’t sound right. Well, usa, usa, usa! Big /S
They are going to automate weaponry so soldiers never face a moral dilemma and get in the way of the war machine.
More like this with MAGA brainwash
Reminds me of what’s that show, the one without canned laughter, in Orange County California where the dumb brother joins the Army and is running Drone operations and they suspect his morality, suspecting he has some, and try to force him to crush a kitten and he refuses and they kick him out.
There are plenty of brainwashed talibangelicals in the military who will happily push the world into global war at trump’s command.
“Truth, honour and the American way!” means that soldiers should disobey trump’s orders and stand up for their country.
If they did so, there would be court-martialed, perhaps called out personally by the president and made into a hated figure amongst the 15% of the population that are Mega diehards, and of course the rest of the population that goes along to get along, which includes cops and prosecutors. But it is beside the point really, they knew what they were signing up for or should have, if they didn’t know then they are too stupid to be relied upon anyway or more charitably I could say to misguided. But between you and me stupid.
The key is that the orders have to be obviously illegal. Can’t be much maybe about it. I didn’t see anything in the article saying what makes it a war crime. And I am pretty sure there isn’t anything very explicit doing so. Bombing/disrupting infrastructure has been a staple of war since forever.
I didn’t see anything in the article saying what makes it a war crime.
A war crime is a serious violation of the laws and customs applicable in armed conflict, known as international humanitarian law (IHL) and the laws of war, which gives rise to criminal responsibility under international law. Examples of actions committed by combatants in the conduct of war that can give rise to individual criminal responsibility include, but are not limited to: intentionally killing civilians, torture, taking hostages, unnecessarily destroying civilian property, deception by perfidy, wartime sexual violence, pillaging, the granting of no quarter despite surrender, the conscription of children in the military, ordering any attempt to commit mass killings (including genocide or ethnic cleansing), and flouting the requirements of distinction, proportionality and military necessity.[1]
Took me 3 seconds on wikipedia -_- every soldiers who commit war crime is a nazi and belongs to the rope.
Ww2 was where hitting the means of production occurred on an industrial scale. But from russians razing and burning their own land they retreat from to romans it has been standard.
International law means nothing anyway. We all know it. I’m sick of hearing about it because it means nothing.
SEEMS LIKE A PRETTY FUCKIN’ EASY DECISION.
There is no brain under the helmet.
Make crime or make no crime.
Is it allowed to be a serious question for the rest of us as well? Or is it just the fucking Military that has the Option to ditch the Law?
The law is just a bunch of words, it can’t make you do anything or prevent you from doing anything. Follow it or don’t your call
Is it? If you follow orders you will most likely not be punished in any way. If you don’t then you definitely will.
I mean, it’s easy for you to tell others to take that risk I guess, maybe that’s what you meant.
If you follow orders you will most likely not be punished in any way
lmao the rope is waiting for you. I’d rather get martial courted for insubordination than getting hung for war crime.
Yes agency - what an awful thing to have. Better be a mindless drone and just coast through life being someone’s bitch huh
I’m not directing this at you btw. Just this mentality of “oh I have no choice but to submit” is what got us in ww3 to begin with.
We could have a very long Nuanced discussion about what led us to this place, I’m not entirely sure your factor is the overriding one either, although it is a factor.
Its what let the Holocaust happen too
It’s not about agency it’s about a very real risk. You will be court-martialed for disobeying an order. Period.
You will then need to fight a lengthy and public legal battle against the US government to prove that your disobeying was legal. And the result is very much not guaranteed.
That is a significant risk to ask of a soldier and should not be underestimated. I hear your armchair “well they should be brave” whining but this is reality.
Sentence for insubordination: 5 years or more
Sentence for crime against humanity: lifetime or the rope.
Sounds like a nobrainer
And if you commit war crime it won’t be a martial court that will hung you.
Well not an american one.
Of course that’s in a world where there’s a justice and we’re not led by a bunch of american pedophiles.
And even if you won that Court battle, politicians including the president might call you out by name, they absolutely would call you out by name, and make you a hated figure and a target across the entire country. Not just for the maga diehards, but for all of those conniving police and prosecutors looking to curry favor with the administration.
Sure but it’s only reality because everyone’s too pussy to take responsibility thus the framework is not protecting agency. So it becomes and endless circle of no one’s taking responsibility out of fear thus no one’s agency is being protected.
The answer here has been clear since ancient Greek philosophers - virtue. As a soldier, or any professional for that matter, you have to rule your position through virtue not fear. This is the only way to resist oppression and deception.
Sure but it’s only reality because everyone’s too pussy to take responsibility
It’s always easy for somebody with no skin in the game to demand another person risk everything they have.
Somebody have blown a village in iraq like a good doggie. People like you disgust me.
“No skin in the game”, go tell that to the people under the bombs, asshole
Based on how the US military has behaved throughout both recent and more distant history, yeah, the answer’s obvious.
They’re going to obey.
They’re not just going to obey, they’ll make videos of it to pass it around as trophies and their citizens will wave it off like it’s normal occurrence.
To be fair many will become disillusioned and realize the error of their ways and join us in time on some issues, at which point most of you will reject them for not being pure enough, where they will be soaked up by cynical motherfuckers on the right wing, and we will continue to lose. Sweet dreams.
If they participated in any of these events and it took them years to figure out that it was wrong then I highly doubt they’d vote for anything other than MAGA anyway
It’s absolutely Imperative that in the new world Order the UN has to be a stronger (best would be THE strongest) global Military Power.
We have to figure out how something Like this rogue stateship of the Military hegemon of the world can be stopped. Otherwise Things gonna repeat themselves.
Maybe the UN should have nuke.
As a former soldier, “warfighter” is the stupidest fucking word I’ve heard in my life. It makes me think the speaker is a profound idiot every time I hear it. This might be the first time I’ve read the word — and it is just as stupid as ever.
That’s who got voted into office. It’s no one’s fault but the American public that these people are your leaders. It’s easy to get ride of them. Collectively vote them out. But that probably won’t happen.
It will 100% happen if we have fair elections, but that’s the rub. Trump has terrible numbers. The economy is garbage. Everything is garbage. We elected a dictator, and he might be too big of a buffoon to strangle our democracy, but there’s a chance that it’s already too late and we failed to stop him when it was possible without violence.
