IIRC, PF-dev Rimu recently explained exactly why he was trialing such limits in a recent software update post. I.e., to create a more efficient internal & external software / HW backbone, for us users, AFAIK. Based on network / host / server loads etc, as I read the updates.
But yeah… the amount of recent negative reaction so far upon that seems… weirdly outsized?
(like, WTF?)
Like-- who the heck comes here exhausted upon corporate social media, and expects a free, open-source community of devs not to tinker with the road-posts and such…?
Pardon my puzzlement here, but I’m a happy PF contributor, and love @PugJesus@piefed.social. Both the dev here and PJ are friends of a sort, and some people I will always try to support.
Because when pressed on the question, both in the Matrix channel and on here, Rimu has admitted that the real motivation is that some people are voting ‘too much’ and have ‘too much influence’. That was, in fact, the original reasoning brought up when he posted the graph in the Matrix channel, if memory serves, and was told by several people in the Matrix channel, including a fellow Fediverse admin, that it wasn’t an ‘issue’ that needed solving. He went ahead anyway - implementing the voting limit before announcing it, and then only ‘announcing’ it as insofar as it was included as a minor detail in the update notes. It even took other Piefed instance admins by surprise.
“You are participating too much” is a shitty fucking viewpoint for any instance to have, and not one that’s welcoming to users.
I had started using my Piefed account to contribute at least a little bit, since I’m fully aware that things in the Fediverse work much the same way as they do on Wikipedia: a very, very small number of people are actively involved, and the rest - the vast majority of users - benefit from it.
Time and again, it was the same usernames - including and especially PugJesus, who was always there - that kept popping up.
Now that I have to watch how one of the - if not the - most important contributor is being treated, it no longer seems worth the effort to contribute anything at all to me.
I can’t understand what the developers think they’re entitled to: The best software in the world is nothing without purpose, and that is, of course, content when it comes to any social media app.
I had apparently mistakenly thought that things might be different in the Fediverse - that there’s an awareness here that it’s not so much the platform that’s valuable, but the content. Of course, I don’t mean at all to deny that the developers do a lot, but an action like this is simply unacceptable and shows a complete misunderstanding of community, which they apparently want to control rather than support. We’ve already had more than enough of that - that is why most users are here in the first place.
The “major-Plattform-attitude” is all too evident in the way you’re treated, PugJesus.
Why shouldn’t someone who pours their heart and soul, time, and dedication into this be rewarded for it? Why shouldn’t actual contributes not be worth more than all the lurkers who contribute nothing but expect their feed to be full of exciting content?
The answer is that developers have a completely wrong view of the world: their significant contribution lies in providing a tool. However, if there is no one to create beautiful things with it, all of this is completely worthless.
I’m deeply disappointed and so disillusioned that I’ve lost all motivation to contribute anything at all.
I simply do not share the attitude of people who believe that the value of the internet lies in software, because that assumption is exactly what the providers of LLMs are making. Let them see for themselves what their software can accomplish on its own.
Bummer man, sad to see you go.
“You are participating too much” is a shitty fucking viewpoint for any instance to have, and not one that’s welcoming to users.
I can’t fully agree with you on this point.
Trolls participate. I feel more welcome on a platform where trolls are not allowed to participate too much.
Anti-science, anti-evidence peddlers of misinformation participate. I feel more welcome on a platform where they are not allowed to participate too much.
People attempting fraud and political manipulation participate. I feel more welcome on a platform where they are not allowed to participate too much.
There are many participants, each with different motives. Some of them set out deliberately to disrupt or harm the community. It is not good for the community if those participants are allowed to participate too much.
Voting is just one form of participating. It is not a universal good. It can be abused, like every other form of interaction in the community. I don’t think it is true that completely unlimited voting is necessarily best for all communities and that any restriction of it is necessarily a result of a shitty attitude.
One of the aspects of the Fediverse that attracts me is that different instances can be different: they are not all required to regulate themselves by the same rules other than the rules of the ActivityPub protocol.
From my perspective, this platform (piefed.social) is welcoming in part because it does prevent some of those who would disrupt and harm its community from participating too much.
Whether the recent experiments in regulating voting will ultimately be good or bad for the community remains to be seen. But I don’t think it is rooted in a shitty fucking viewpoint. I applaud the experiment. And you, of course, are free to enjoy unlimited voting on your own instance. Isn’t that the point of a federation of diverse systems?
I find your disrespectful and abuse laden mischaracterization and rejection of a different viewpoint to be unwelcoming.
I can’t fully agree with you on this point.
Trolls participate. I feel more welcome on a platform where trolls are not allowed to participate too much.
Anti-science, anti-evidence peddlers of misinformation participate. I feel more welcome on a platform where they are not allowed to participate too much.
People attempting fraud and political manipulation participate. I feel more welcome on a platform where they are not allowed to participate too much.
There are many participants, each with different motives. Some of them set out deliberately to disrupt or harm the community. It is not good for the community if those participants are allowed to participate too much.
The issue with all of the things you mentioned is their participation, period. Not participating ‘too much’.
I find your disrespectful and abuse laden mischaracterization and rejection of a different viewpoint to be unwelcoming.
Don’t worry. You won’t have to deal with me after this, on any instance. I’m out of the Fediverse after this.
Damn, sorry to hear your are leaving. I was considering it, but the .zip admins seem to be of the same mind as me and disabled the limiter.
It might be worth seeing if the anarchist fork of piefed is near completion (might be a migration option).
Either way, thank you for your contributions over the years I really enjoyed them. I hope you are able to find a location/platform where you’re happy and appreciated :)
Unfortunately, the Flotilla has its own… distinct set of problems. If I return - and I wouldn’t bet on it - it would probably be to .zip or .ca or the like.
For what it’s worth, ive been on .zip since joining lemmy and it has been nothing but smooth sailing. We are a “boring” instance in the best sense, stuff is just working and the admin does a great job of keeping the users informed through monthly updates.
However i can definitely empathize with your frustration, you are one of the most prolific posters on the fediverse and migrating your work is still not as simple as it should be.
However you decide, thank you for all your entertaining and educational contributions 🫡
Gotcha, I can definitely understand that viewpoint.
Well, if you don’t come back, I wish you happiness and a good rest of your life :)
There’s a permanent home for you at lemmy.today if you want it. I’m sure we could give you enough controlto be comfortable.
I appreciate the offer, but the issue isn’t control. I could shop around for a new instance that looks stable (though, for the record, I would still probably prefer a Piefed instance - no offense to Lemmy.today) if I had the morale left to migrate my comms and build them back up, but I just… I don’t. I’ve built them up three times, and I’m tired of rolling that boulder up the mountain. I don’t have it left in me, especially since all three times it was just as they were beginning to become self-sustaining without me. It’s… immensely demoralizing, and I don’t have it left in me.
Maybe I’ll feel different in a few months, but… I don’t know, man. At some point, I have to ask myself the definition of insanity, and as much as I enjoy posting in active historical comms, getting them to the point where I’m not the only participant is long and tedious, and I just…
… feel like if it’s not one thing, it’s another. Kbin and lemm.ee went down. Dbzer0 shifted towards the tankies and bizarre clique shite. .world won’t stop making amateurish admin mistakes. Now Piefed is playing “experiments in anti-social-media”…
Whether the Threadiverse itself has a future is a different question entirely - I suspect that it does, and that’s a good thing.
But can I discern which currently-extant instance will be standing as-is in a year’s time? Or will there be some fucking bullshit that comes up again, setting me back to square one trying to rebuild comms for a topic that there isn’t a lot of organic growth for in the Threadiverse; comms that I can’t just start and leave and act like a normal poster if I want it to have more than a dozen fucking upvotes and a post a week?
That question is… an extra weight on the already demoralizing prospect of moving, and one that I just…
… would rather not have to answer.
Tangeli, WTF?!
PJ, I straight up… you’re my bro as far as I see it.
In any case, what are you weirdos doing here?
deleted by creator
AFAIK it was an attempt to explain in good faith the point behind limiting the same kind of botting and abuse that happens across all major social media platforms, was it not?
Seriously, like that’s some wild, inexplicable initiative that Rimu came up these days, just to P-O everyone available for no reason at all?
PJ, shoot me your phone# if you get a chance, I’m currently cognizant.
AFAIK it was an attempt to explain in good faith the point behind limiting the same kind of botting and abuse that happens across all major social media platforms, was it not?
Rimu explicitly said that he didn’t think the top voting users were bots or abusive/coordinated.
Seriously, like that’s some wild, inexplicable initiative that Rimu came up these days, just to P-O everyone available for no reason at all?
No, it’s a long-standing strain of his thinking about the harms of social media. Which he’s not wrong about, but the solution to that is not “Make a form of social media that’s intentionally worse for the most active users”, unless the only goal is to make something with the intention of failing.
PJ, shoot me your phone# if you get a chance, I’m currently cognizant.
Shit man, no disrespect intended, but I don’t even give out my phone number to people I know in real life.
And I have a terrible stutter in any case, so online voice chat is uncomfortable for me.
Rimu explicitly said that he didn’t think the top voting users were bots or abusive/coordinated.
While that might be true, imagine if you will (very few here know who Rod Serling is?), not just writing the software for a legit, well-tested ActivityPub player, and then of course the (usually crappy) job of trying to administrate the sucker (a classic Fool’s Journey, coming from me).
“Make a form of social media that’s intentionally worse for the most active users”, unless the only goal is to make something with the intention of failing.
I don’t quite understand, sorry.
And I have a terrible stutter in any case
Thank god; I have dry pauses in my F-d up brain regions… I guess we weren’t going to appear on Jimmy Kimmel anyway. XD
While that might be true, imagine if you will (very few here know who Rod Serling is?), not just writing the software for a legit, well-tested ActivityPub player, and then of course the (usually crappy) job of trying to administrate the sucker (a classic Fool’s Journey, coming from me).
Rimu said after the last controversy (which was not his fault, tbf) that he was going to step away from the admin side of things.
In any case, this isn’t just some random blunder or fuck-up. It’s precisely that it is in-line with previous statements, proposals, and values expressed by Rimu that I think the implementation is bad fucking news going forward. I have no more trust that Piefed.social won’t be an experiment in “How much can we punish users to minimize the harms of social media participation?” going forward.
I don’t quite understand, sorry.
“I think the most active users should be punished for participating so much” is a great way to drive away the most active users and drive down participation, which rarely bodes well for the long-term health of a project. It’s not something that should be implemented, unless one’s goal is, incomprehensibly, specifically to fail.
Certainly, it won’t be reaching the goal of dislodging corporate-controlled alternatives. But I guess that’s not as important as I thought it was when I made the exodus to the Fediverse.
It’s really weird because he killed voting agents, what was by far piefed’s best feature, due to admin peer pressure. But now hes clearly taken that lesson to heart and decided to just kind of fully reject outside influence.
Like honestly if we could get voting agents back, without the awkward “trusted instance” thing I would almost not care about the quota issue.
That was a bad implementation that was doomed at the start to fail. Technical feasability should have been considered from the start, not only much later after it pissed off half the Fediverse community. Heck, now we all are in agreement that when Lemmy mods are preemptively mass-banning people who have never even so much as heard of the instances involved, much less the brand-new (or rather planned to be started) communities with zero posts in them, that this counts as “spam” at best - contaminating the modlog - and at worst even a form of “attack”? Well, the anonymized voting situation was very similar, in reverse, was it not? Breaking the standardized norms, making it look like bot swarms attempting to manipulate votes, and even if PieFed instances were not doing the former, allowing such would also have opened the door to ACTUAL bot swarms that really WERE trying to unduly influence voting, would it not?
Making real change is hard, and will take more than an idea followed up with just a few lines of code.
Frankly, none of those things are my problem. Voting agents provided a layer of protection for real users from corporate and authoritarian data mining, as well as overzealous moderation. Bot accounts could already easily pull of the same thing by automating multiple user agents, so removing that tool for real users did nothing to stop that. The outrage over the idea was complete, 100% FUD, and was an early sign of Lemmy admins fundamentally misunderstanding the problem. There was literally zero evidence presented that the feature ever assisted in any bot or troll attacks, only that it annoyed admins who wanted to power trip, actually demonstrating that it worked as intended.
Oh gosh, actually that’s LOADS like my recent experience, and even tantrum-worthy upon such. Or just… “too many casuals,” let’s say?
PJ, FWIW-- I’m terminally disabled with ME/CFS.
The idea that either of us could be ‘less than best’ in a phone chat is… haha, almost a given at this point?Oh well, ships passing in the Night XD
To me it seems like Remu doesn’t like the direction the fediverse is going and decided to limit the participation of the most active users to curate his ALL feed.
It was definitely a dastardly decision by mystery-person “Remu,” yup!
I can even understand, that the voting quota is a measure against network’s bot abuse, but the automatic measure is IMHO too soon for a network of scale of today’s Threadiverse. One could even argue, that so few bots can skew the feeds on this network, but as voting on Fediverse is public (in spite of softwares trying to obscure it to appease the fledditors), this still can be tackled up by few moderation actions.
And are you closely-working with the body of ActivityPub devs and future-planners in order to make such sweeping statements upon a completely free-to-use service like this…?
Limiting the voting is only going to negatively affect normal users, while those who abuse the system will continue to be able to do so. Regular user will hit the quota and be forced to wait; someone trying to actually influence opinions and shit will just switch to a different account and continue manipulating votes.
It’s also a bit hypocritical to frame it as trying to prevent certain influences when it’s being forced upon you by another dude who has complete control over the software. It’s okay when it’s Rimu influencing things, but not any of the actually active power users? Absolutely moronic.
I genuinely hope that there is no, has been no, and will be no directed personal attacks toward the Piefed devs over this because nobody deserves that kind of crap (especially when they’re building something you use for free), but I completely understand the backlash against this particular anti-feature.
I’m not even on Piefed, but apparently I do have a horse in this race after all. Assuming I’m both reading the code correctly and that this code also handles incoming-federated votes, then my votes to piefed.social are also silently quota’d.
So, if I step away for a few days and come back and catch up in bulk (as I’m wont to do), then assuming the quota of 240 votes per day, only 240 posts and or comments originating from piefed.social are allowed to please me that day. Anything beyond that will seem like it upvoted on my end but will apparently be discarded and the OP will never see them.
If I’m interpreting that wrong, please correct me.
So apparently now I have to play resource management and track how many things on Piefed I upvote lest something I really want the OP to get credit for go silently ignored.
It is far worse than that even: each and every instance can set its own cap. Some could set it to 0, others to 500, others leave it at the default of 240, and so on. Interestingly, PieFed.zip set it to 86,400, one vote per second over a 24-hr period, effectively disabling it from affecting humans.
However, no communities are able to state how many votes are being discarded / suppressed / censored. And what if it changes? Either the default or some instance’s specific value for it? Is even that 86400 number still valid today, or might it have changed since it was set? After all, PieFed.social used to discard zero votes, while now it intentionally discards some votes, so it is a proven precedent that such things DO change over time!!
This is voting censorship, not only of PieFed’s internal votes as displayed to users on the same instance, but even altering the vote counts of Lemmy users too. And unless I miss my guess, Lemmy users will of course not be told about whether their vote was accepted or rejected? Other comments in this very post seem to suggest that the counts are already showing up differently, on Lemmy vs. PieFed?
PieFed is now “shadow-banning” the votes of the most active contributors - including those coming in from Lemmy.
One of the more crucial aspects here imho is the part where nobody is being told whether their votes have been censored in the past, present, or even whether the community in question is likely to do the censoring or not in the future. This environmental variable is not “exposed” to the public in any way, at least not that we have been told.
This shadow censorship is so terribly unfriendly that I could even see as a remote possibility reputable Lemmy instances deciding to defederate from PieFed instances, in order to protect their users from the confusion that will result in posts, comments, and now also votes from Lemmy users being censored WITHOUT WARNING ⚠️. Maybe not… probably not, but while PieFed can do whatever it pleases, others can do as they please as well, and the other instances are only going to go so far along the lines of these kinds of “experiments”, especially those as unannounced as this one was.
Well, 240 actions per day is reasonable / unreasonable? Okay, what’s the REAL STORY, do you suppose?
(if I’m Jim Jefferies, I have a swift response ready, lol)
If you are strictly a user, and don’t moderate any communities Etc the limit isn’t too broken. It is still broken. If you moderate any number of communities. This is extremely broken and makes standard community leader/moderator behavior difficult if not often impossible. I had considered at one point migrating some of my communities over to piefed. And even if I did it likely wouldn’t bump this quota for me. But this quota certainly is a good reason for me not to move. Especially the way it was handled.
Rimu has a HUGE communication problem. And this isn’t even the first time it’s caused drama. Had this been communicated instead of discovered. It wouldn’t have been nearly the issue it’s become. Had it been communicated instead of discovered. People could have given feedback. Had there been feedback there would have likely been much less pushback. Or maybe not even the issue at all. And believe me I get it. People of the programming mindset get into cycles and logic. Forgetting that that’s not what people are. And things that might make sense on that front often don’t make sense when you’re dealing with people. Until Rimu gets some sort of communication pipeline solved. This will not be the last time changes will cause drama. Or alienation of valuable members.
That’s not a communication problem.
He nearly faced burn out. So he set his own boundary and communication pipeline so we can focus on Piefed developpement instead on dealing on fedidrama.
I also do the same, it gives us a peace of mind. I just post and move elsewhere with my french mod team because it is much more chill than on the threadiverse.
It’s literally a communication issue, and you are having another one right here. At best. I’m well aware of the drama rimu kept getting themselves into. That isn’t what were talking about. What were talking about, is a simple blog or community to post on new features and additions. And then civil discussions and feedback.
It’s your project, you all can run it as you see fit. And the rest of us are free to fork it or use something else. Something that respects the users more. I’d like to see piefed succeed. I thought you all were interested in that too. But you seem committed to not understanding why/how you’re impacting and even running off some of your most active users and their contributions. Or the problem with that.
Honestly, my opinion is that any vote quota that applies universally is unreasonable and development effort would be better spent identifying the small percentage of accounts that may be abusing the system / manipulating votes and applying a quota to those accounts specifically or making it easier to deal with those identified accounts in some other way.
Like, looking at the modlog, you’ll often see bans with “vote manipulation” as the reason, so that seems to be working fine for everyone else. Maybe put development effort into making those easier to identify rather than arbitrarily limiting everyone who interacts with your instance.
And I’m not convinced that the underlying reason(s) for having the quotas holds water, so if I have a bias here, that would be it.
Well the vote quota is set above average normal human reaction. How it is not a tool to identify bot ?
Once they switch to their alt account, can’t we detect more easily bot ?
Anyway since the beggining that’s how piefed was crafted. It was against bot, vibe coding…it hasn’t changed.
Well the vote quota is set above average normal human reaction. How it is not a tool to identify bot ?
240 votes in a day is not above ‘average normal human reaction’.
That’s a lot. How it is limiting your activities as you told us earlier ?
If you stop posting, that’s just the choice you made, that’s not due to the voting quota. You may claim it limit your activity because you disagree with this, but there is only yourself there.
That’s a lot. How it is limiting your activities as you told us earlier ?
I said, multiple times, that I hit the vote quota before it was even announced.
If you stop posting, that’s just the choice you made, that’s not due to the voting quota. You may claim it limit your activity because you disagree with this, but there is only yourself there.
“It only enshittifies one part of your experience! It’s your fault if that makes your overall experience not worth it!”
🙄
would be better spent identifying the small percentage of accounts that may be abusing the system / manipulating votes
Fuck me if I know, mate, but my takeaway was that such was the plan…?
PugJesus already shared with you a link from Rimu - https://piefed.social/comment/12082419 - showing that Rimu knows precisely who those people are. They aren’t bots, they are humans who contribute to the Threadiverse in the form of votes.
If they are acting nefariously… then I would not know, bc we are not told who they are. But in theory, if they were, then yeah, just ban them? Or honey pot them I guess?
What exactly are you trying to say…?
You said that it was already the plan to go about:
identifying the small percentage of accounts that may be abusing the system
I was pointing to a post showing that such had already been done, and the results of an analysis of such. There really is a lot of information about this subject, if you want to read about it - the link I sent, authored by Rimu himself - is a great place to start.
That’s supposedly part of the justification for the quota, but it hasn’t been shown or proven those top 3% or whatever are engaging in any malicious behavior. And it brings me back to "why not just investigate that 3% and deal with them individually? Or make reporting/tools to examine the behavior of those “problematic” 3% of users?
I’ve been outside working in the heat, so the best comparison I can come up with at the moment is how ISPs use the top 3% of power users to justify data caps for everyone.
*3% used as a “low percentage of users” since I don’t remember the exact numbers from the explanation post about this.
Mate, what “Iced Raktajino” level of anything possibly matches that level of hostile insecurity…?
Is there any point starting this up again?
Seems like everything that needs to be said has been said.
Seems to me one of the nice things about the fediverse is that, if a user really wants things their own way, they can host themselves on it independently.
“Communication” is a 2-way street, requiring consensus of multiple parties involved. Yes someone can spin up their own instance - running whatever software or variant you like, of e.g. Lemmy, PieFed, Mbin, Sublinks, nodeBB, Friendica, Mastodon, Pixelfed, Loops, etc., or something else entirely new even - but others still have a choice to decide whether to federate with your instance or not.
So at some point, cooperation becomes mandatory - if you want to do anything more than simply listen in to conversations going on across the wider Fediverse, and actually and actively participate in them.
PJ has proven themselves to be a community minded individual. Yes they have strongly held world views but not ones that are fringe, especially here. There will be instances that defederate instances of a single power user like that but maybe that isn’t the worst outcome. I like having PJ here, I think they are cool. But also they are undeniably a power user which extract more of a cost for hosting than an average soul. Not trying to make it sound like any easy task to get an instance going, but that is kind of my point. The effort put into making things work justify decisions pertaining to that instance. Rimu does a lot of work to provide us all a service and I think that entitles them to more control than the rest of us have.
There are just so many factors here.
One is that appearance is sometimes more important than reality - the mere fact that PieFed is now shadow-censoring votes is going to give people severe pause about joining any instances that use it (read the other comments in this & the linked threads - people have already outright stated such, and not merely as individual users but bringing entire communities here). Note how despite only 0.2% of people will be directly affected - this number is according to Rimu’s analysis - the indirect ripples are already spreading far out of proportion to that.
It would be different if this new anti-feature (I call it that since voting is a feature and this new addition removes a part of what used to be allowed, even encouraged) were much more transparently implemented - e.g. which instances use it currently, like some instances could leave those limits at the default of 240 per day, while others increase that to 500, still others 1000, maybe some lower it to 100, and these can change from moment to moment, however there is currently no way for users to know what those settings are. Some admins have even been caught by surprise, it would seem, as to what their own settings are (iirc it was a misspelled or misplaced configuration setting of the environmental variable).
Anyway this is a highly unpopular decision, but almost none of its unpopularity lies in opposition to the - as you pointed to - very sensible need to constrain resources. Look deeper than that.
Many people have been absolutely begging for people to contribute more - creating communities, offering posts (even if merely of recycled content, in order to kickstart a community of people who can then take something forward in a more sustainable manner), making comments on those posts (so that the posters do not quit in frustration due to lack of receptivity of people to their content), and yes upvoting as much as possible to people who do all of these things, to send a signal that yes we want more of such (more posts + more comments).
PugJesus did all of these things, then without warning essentially got kicked in the balls, not for having violated any rules but for doing as so many community growers have asked to be done, i.e. ostensibly the correct thing to do? He could have at the very least been offered a warning first?
PieFed is showing itself to be capricious and subject to change at a moment’s notice, without warning and reputedly in stark opposition to all discussions to the contrary. Yes it can do as it pleases… but content creators will also do as they please as well. I foresee lesser donations to PieFed in the future as a result - monetary, code changes, and content offered. This greatly saddens me, I do not say this out of vindictiveness or anything like that, but rather frustration since I would have loved to see PieFed flourish. And I think it still will, but not as brightly, not as quickly, and I now think nowhere near as extensively as I previously had hopes for.
Think ahead to the next steps. Yes you are correct in the absolute narrowest sense, but there is so much more to it than that.
Yeah I can see all those things too. I left reddit because it was too big and loud over there, and secretly I hope this place never has exponential growth. The quality of interactions here is so much higher and I think that it is directly because of being a smaller community. I know that not everyone shares that view though and most people would be glad to see many more users here. Still you are right that receiving fewer votes will be discouraging for some, and that will have a cooling effect.
Not sure. Guess I hadn’t seen it the first ding-dong-dang-time around.
Admittedly I’m pretty hot about such criticism.
I’ll shut it, now.
