As Russian aggression continues and Trump’s US threatens NATO, it is even more vital for a unified defence of the continent.
Timothy Garton Ash Professor of European Studies, University of Oxford
Hey everyone, let’s keep the discussion constructive. This topic is important, and diverse perspectives are valuable. Remember, long reply chains rarely change minds, but they often escalate tension. If a conversation isn’t productive, consider stepping back. Let’s focus on sharing ideas, not winning arguments. Thanks for keeping it respectful!
As a german: I really am not sure if I want to embed our Bundeswehr into a Europe where Marie LePen might become the head of France, where fascist Melony is ruling Italy and so on.
I am more concerned that our current government plays into the hands of the AfD while increasing military. If the AfD comes into power, they get a large military
The fact fascism can come from within makes it extra hard to fight, yes.
Still, vs. Putin, Europe has a long way it would have to slide.
Look on the bright side. AfD seems to be taking over Germany and then you are back to a fascist military so it won’t matter whether you integrate with Europe or not. (Not that I can talk with VB here in Belgium)
I think it’s an argument for the inability of one nation within the EU to attack another one. Similarly to the euro zone.
Imagine a French, German and Italian army with barracks all over Europe. Imagine then one of the three tried to coordinate an attack on another one. It would immediately deadlock. Operation would require unity, which in a defensive case, is easier to organize.
There are probably arguments for both, integration and independence. I dunno…
As a Dane, I do want strong militaries, because given what’s happening in Greenland right now we may need to show more strength towards the US… Not to mention Russia and China.
As a French citizen (dual citizen), I am ashamed that LePen is even in consideration for president. We need to work against the billionaires essentially buying fascists into power for their own gains.
Seconded
Well, tough luck. Germany only has alliance military forces based on your constitution.
And having a military that can actually protect our allies fulfilling exactly that role.
Yeaaah the ancestors of the blue-brown smurfs who might come back to power also enjoyed the german military spread out across europe…just not in that way
Doesn’t mean we can ignore the fascist smurf in the Kremlin threatening our allies. We need to get the AfD banned yesterday and prepare for war.
Ofc!!! I think i misunderstood the topic discussed here lol
Has every single one of those people loudly lamenting the rise of German military power spend the cold war (or alternatively every history class) unconcious?
Germany had the 2nd biggest military in NATO, far biggest one in Europe for decades… firmly embedded in European defense strategy via said NATO.
Had. Now it is like the sixth or seventh after US, Poland, Turkey, France, UK.
I thought US left NATO?
They did not. How committed they are to actually honouring the alliance is a different question.
This is always way too overblown, look at the size of the german armed forces during the cold war, we’re far below those numbers.
Do you think that Germany will attain those numbers again in the next 15 years?
no, we’re not having enough kids
Last time Germany had a military power, they tried, and partially succeeded, to firmly embed it in Europe.
If anybody wants to know “what’s been taking so long” responses like this are probably the reason.
To be honest, I am glad Germans are arming themselves. I even hope, that if the time comes, they will be determined enough to send their troops east. As a Pole I really hope, this time, they will do it in cooperation with Poland, not with russia.
I’ve got bad news for you. AfD will probably take power, starting in German states this fall…just like the NSDAP did. They are Russian puppets through and through.
If anything the Eastern European states should be afraid of German military spending at this time.
Last time? True, Western Germany was a super powerful military embedded in western Europe. Maybe that’s why the Soviets never attacked.
Imagine simping so hard for the German state, that you pretend not to understand, what‘s meant by „military power“ and „last time“ and in the next sentence shift towards an attack on the military power that paid with 27 million lives to stop Germany‘s extermination campaign, the last time it was a military power.
Absolutely normal.
Absolutely normal.
It is absolutely normal if one is not completely fixated on second world war. And the “last time” Germany had an significant military was not in the 30s and 40s… it was in the 80s, with strong ties to NATO and firmly on the ground of the German constitution.
Removed by mod
Aren’t you the one simping for and whitewashing the Bundeswehr in the other thread?
If not utterly condemning the Bundeswehr and highlighting positive things where they are is “simping” for you - yep, that’s me!
Is that the nature of your account now, is that what we can expect from you in the future?
Yep, feel free to block me if you don’t want to see opinions conflicting with your own.
The qualitative difference now is, that Germany strives to be THE military power of Europe again, with other countries following their lead
This is - at best - a half-truth. Germany is the biggest economy in Europe, it is only natural that it has to shoulder a big part of the European defence. Even with a massive rearmament to reduce the impact of the decreasing US military presence - which is happening all over Europe, mind you - Germany’s role is to be a part in a defensive alliance. If you see any ambition to conquer “Lebensraum” in the east, please feel free to share the evidence.
Removed by mod
Honestly, thank you for this clarification of your standpoint. I think it is in the best interest of both our blood pressure and the discussion climate in this community if we disengage our communication at this point - as neither of us will be able to convince the other of our viewpoints.
In this spirit i wish you a nice day.
I know that you are German. You probably feel deeply ashamed about your family’s history and your great grandparents or great great grandparents and their crimes.
But please don’t put your personal history onto cotemporary Europe.
Please also don’t let it drive you to ignore history of all the millions who died due to Soviet war crimes, violence, starvation.
We’re all against fascism here, darling. You’re not alone. This is not the battle you’re fighting.
I’d suggest to talk for yourself only. And you certainly are not anti-fascist. You don’t even know how stores work, why should any normal working class human trust your Staatsräson takes, that usually are not even based on facts or reality even?
And you keep doing this same attempt of a character assassination based on nothing. It’s a bit embarrassing. And always when your hilarious state narratives are being challenged.
We’ve been talking German military and you keep trying to shift the focus away from the state’s obvious historic path and responsibility, by the use of Red Scare propaganda to shovel blame onto the evil Soviets. The shit you pull is close to denial of German history.
Anything, except accepting critique of the German state.
Just in time to be on the erong side of history again.
In Berlin, there’s a growing consensus that Putin won’t stop at Ukraine
What reality are they in? Putin has barely been able to invade part of Ukraine over multiple years, and it has cost him greatly. Who in their right mind thinks he has the power to march through the rest of Ukraine, and then Poland and then come all the way to Germany?
Fuck Putin but the reasons for this sudden military buildup are so sus. And it’s right as we come up on Germany likely electing the most right-wing government since you-know-when.
Also “defense of the continent”? How do you become Professor without knowing that Russia itself is a mostly European country?
Before he invaded Ukraine in 2022, many people also said that he might be insane to try. Well, he is. He can do absolutely anything, and it doesn’t cost him anything. It costs Russians, but there’s still a lot there to such dry of he wants to.
My point: don’t consider him pragmatic. He’s a senile man with bombs and does what he wants.
The argument isn’t that Putin wants a total war with Europe, but rather that he’s perfectly capable to attack a Baltic state. The general idea is that Russia isn’t weak, it just faces a surprisingly resilient and innovative enemy.
So, a limited attack on a bordering EU country is possible. And there currently is a lack of military deterrence to do so, while the benefits (a fragmented NATO) are there.
Putin has barely been able to invade part of Ukraine over multiple years
Yeah and he doesn’t care that he can’t occupy Ukraine, is killing massive amounts of his people and destroying his country’s economy as long at it keeps him in power. So when Putin’s decisions are very obviously not based on any kind of sense, why not attack the Baltics next? Doesn’t matter that he won’t be able to defeat NATO. When he sees a political or personal reason he will do it, because fuck any consequences others have to bear.
not based on any kind of sense
The West did some things to Iraq, Libya and other countries. It’s not entirely unreasonable to be a bit worried. We bought the Cuba story that the US cannot allow rockets there. We still don’t help Cuba to be free. There is a moral imbalance that makes Russia seem less reasonable than they could be.
Call me a cynic, but I tend to not give much about morality here. When predicting the behavior of countries/their leaders I simply go by precendent.
Would the US randomly invade any third world country under a pretense for oil (or other geopolitical reasons) if they think they can get away with it? Sure. Would the current US administration be as bad and also incredibly stupid and incompetent on top? Very much so. Will Russia that doubled down on a failing quick special military operation again and again while telling fairy tales of fighting NATO and totally ignoring all setbacks, double down again and attack NATO territory when it’s fitting their political narrative because they obviously don’t care for the consequences? Entirely possible.
I can answer all these questions without any moral or much bias or some “we vs. them” view point just based on what already happened.
Removed by mod
Are you ignorant or a Russian bot?
Look at the countries bordering Russia and count the number of invasions over the last 15 years.
Talk to Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians.
Educate yourself!!
I’m gonna ask again when the strong German military is firmly in the hands of an AfD government, which will be directly controlled by Putin. That’s gonna be so fun 🎉
Realistically, if AfD is in control and starts doing shenanigans militarily, Germans are gonna politely drag them out of office. I mean, this is a country where only a minority would take up arms to defend their own house, they are not going to attack anyone if they need to be dragged kicking and screaming to defend.
firmly in the hands of an AfD governmentnt, which will be directly controlled by Putin.
Weidel is supposedly more on the US side. If she manages to pull a Merkel and silence Putin’s men then other bad things can happen.
Weidel is the Röhm of our times. She will be the first victim of the night of the long knives.
History only rhymes. Lucke is dead. Petry is half dead. Weidel is too clever to be the third person making the same mistake.
The AfD won’t get 50% soon in Berlin. Weidel will be head of opposition for years to come. This allows the CDU to do whatever they want because the remaining opposition has less than 25% for a parliamentary inquiry committee.
In the last 15 years?? 2. Ukraine and the Caucasus. Zero baltic state invasions. But I’m not here to defend Putin whatsoever.
Look at the countries in the middle east and count the number of invasions that the German military has been part of or supported with weapons and military technology in the last 15 years. I can promise it’s more than 2. And don’t forget one of those involves a genocide.
Can you tell us the number of invasions over the last 15 years, please? I checked, but I call bullshit from your side.
Did you talk to Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians or are you pulling that shit out of your ass to discredit your discussion partner, in the same way you do, when you ask, if they are a Russian bot?
