So, it’s my first time working in a country that legally requires workplaces to accommodate neurodivergence. I have been upfront about my diagnosis since I joined.
It’s my first admin-heavy role, and turns out, ADHD doesn’t like double checking if every single field on a page was filled in correctly.
After being put on a PIP, I’ve been working on an autohotkey script that automates the clicking and navigation, and prompts me to enter data where needed. In theory, tihs means I don’t miss out on anything as long as the script works fine, and when you don’t do the clicking yourself, mistakes are easier to spot when you check.
I presented it to my manager (first time manager, woo.) today during the weekly review, and this was what they said: “My concern is, would you be able to follow the process and do the task if you were to lose access to this tool you have built?”
It seems like no degree of explaining that it’s not that I do not know how to do the task correctly, my brain just loathes the finer details and would mean the work would be more prone to error will get through to them.
I will be resigning before the final check next week anyway, but just want some advice on how to respond to that question in the future.
You must log in or # to comment.
In your position, I wouldn’t even present the tool to management at all. Just use it to automate my task, and enjoy the extra free time.
Yep. Neurodivergent folks tend to have the urge to be overly honest/overshare.
Think of it this way, OP: would you present your lunch to your manager and justify it? The small details of how you go about your day and your job are your business. Only address it if they do, and tell them what they want to hear. Then proceed to do what you were doing, especially if your numbers (or whatever bs metric they use) are fine.
Right like bring up an accommodation when it’s something you do not have that you need. Bringing up something you were already doing successfully is just doing too much. Save your goodwill points for stuff you need help from the manager to gain access to.
I’m definitely still learning to ask for accommodations, because apparently asking them to understand that I’m more mistake prone for admin stuff is not an accommodation. In future roles, I’ll either install AHK on my own, or request IT to give it to me as an accommodation from the start.
The manager is probably a lost cause. According to another colleague, they were actually expected to do marketing work on top of the admin as part of their role when they first were hired, only to really hate it after they joined and somehow their boss just accepted that and left the marketing manager to handle everything solo…
Sometimes people get away with shortcomings, other time they don’t.
I recommend using portable apps on usb when IT doesn’t let you install programs. Not sure if AHK has a portable version.
But part of masking for me is to avoid needing to ask for things that will raise eyebrows.
Not really, due to what they need to be able to run I think.
That being said, IT security is fairly high here. We also had to get special permission to plug in USBs.
Omg, hi, lol.
I wish I had done it sooner before I got stuck on a PIP, to be honest. The script eliminates the human error I was struggling with when working manually as long as it works fine.
It was also in a workplace that required full in office presence (customers would come in) and the network blocked WhatsApp, and I’d been talked to one day about my excessive phone use (because I was low on tasks that day).
Being told “We can find things for you to do if you’ve done everything” probably should have been a red flag, but I’m also in a place where I couldn’t afford to be a chooser and leave.
On the upside, I got a mouse that supports multiple connections for covert phone browsing and might look into building a wireless split keyboard for the same reasons in my new downtime. I currently use a wired sofle.
That sounds awful tbh.
*look at them + long pause, then sigh*
I was able to build the tool thanks to my in depth knowledge and understanding of the task and the process.
For real!
Step one of automating a task (successfully) is understanding it intimately
I wish I did this!
You said exactly what I should have. But if they fail to see this, then whatever I suppose.
The manager’s position is fallacious: you built the tool, so if you lost access to it because requirements changed or whatever… you could just build another tool
Arguably, your script is a disability aid. You’ve already demonstrated that if you don’t have access to the tool you struggle to follow the process. They’ve documented this and put you on a PIP, and you’re trying to address it with a change in process to suit your disability. You’re doing HR’s job for them even if they don’t see it that way
Extreme parallel: if a person can’t get around without a wheelchair, then would the manager be concerned that they wouldn’t be able to do their job if they lost access to their chair? And if they are, what are they doing taking away somebody’s wheelchair for?
There’s a good chance you’ll never be able to reason with that kind of person - management seems to select that way. But if you could, I’d point out that it’s a process improvement that costs zero dollars, it’s more ergonomic, and it mitigates the effect of your disability which your employer is legally mandated to accommodate.
Then again if I was quitting next week, I’d be just as likely to call the manager an idiot and go on with my day. This never helps, but if you don’t mind burning bridges it’s pretty cathartic
Definitely get the manager to send that statement in an email.
Why don’t you just answer the question. Yes, I would, of course, otherwise I wouldn’t be able to automate it in the first place. It’s just faster and more accurate this way.
Edit: I hope this doesn’t come across as callous, but I don’t think that talking about your brain in this context is productive or even relevant. You were hired to do that job, so you need to do it well enough. If you need accommodation to be able to do it well, then you should request it and they should provide it. But to put the manager’s concerns to rest, you will eventually need to show good performance. At the meeting, if you can, first show evidence that your results improved, the tool you used to get there is secondary (unless it’s only discussed as a future plan).
Thanks, that’s very straightforward. I think my self confidence has been absolutely battered and I’m just a bit worn out and unsure of myself now.
Sorry to hear that, and that the job didn’t work out as you hoped. Why are you resigning? Is the environment and the management bad for you otherwise?
I moved from a marketing role (5 years experience) to a more heavy administrative role (new), even though marketing was in the job description. Marketing turned out to have a much smaller share of the tasks I would undertake daily.
I have to work on tasks for 3 different managers, so the management depending was quite different.
The marketing manager was the nicest and was very considerate of my time dedicated to other tasks and tried their best to give me interesting work assignment opportunities. They are by far the happiest with my output, and had no complaints besides having had to chase up a couple times.
The manager I worked with the least kind of outlined the tasks for say, preparing for an event, but mostly expected me to know what they wanted from the general outline, or expected me to ask my main manager, since they previously did the work.
Main manager was the toughest - I worked with them on day to day the most. They’d show me a thing once with a high expectation of me doing it right after, so they didn’t tend to check until major issues popped up. They just moved up from my role to being a manager, so didn’t understand how to manage really.
The environment wasn’t terrible, but I didn’t feel like I would be supported if I was struggling or in a bad place (which, I wasnt). They put me on a PIP 3 months into a 6 month probation for a 1 year short term contract.
Commiseration, not advice. This tool strikes me as being more of a universally useful tool than a disability aid. The manager’s failure to recognize that is their own fault. They should have recognized that it could help everyone who does this job instead of focusing on your disability. What they also don’t understand is that building the tool tickled the dopamine so it probably works well.
Commuting 5 hours a day is no way to live; I wish you all the luck in finding employment that works for you. PIP suck the confidence out of a person.
Thank you.
The tool does trigger little bits of dopamine - you manually enter maybe 50% less and it’s done at a speed your eyes can barely track. As a supportive colleague said: “It’s automagic!”
Its my 2nd PIP. In between the last role where I was managed out and this one, I had a team and manager that were chill with my shortcomings and appreciated the diversity of tasks I could take on and do well, since they had to review and sign off on it anyway, so mistakes weren’t seen as much of a problem as it was flagged and corrected prior to anything going public. Probably helped that my manager was also likely ADHD and prone to her own snap changes in decisionmaking and small mistakes, so it felt more like a mutually supportive thing.
It really built up my confidence, so to have moved into a role that was new and had responsibilities that really were not to my advantage, and then put on a PIP again so quickly did hurt. I moved to a new country, so I had to leave my last role.
But I know that in the right environment and I can do well. Coupled with the anti-depressants that help manage the inherent ADHD anxiety and improve my executive function, I’m not lingering on my sadness for too long at least.
Tbh the advice I’ve heard is that if you are put on a PIP then it’s time to search for a new job. Not even in terms of neurodivergence but just general advice for everyone. I think PIPs are generally businesses covering their asses so they can fire you without risk of a lawsuit.
Personally I’d give up on the script and convincing them it’s a disability aid and instead spend that energy job hunting instead.
(To me, your boss asking you what you’d do if you lost access to it, sounds like they’re already convinced that you’re not the employee they want…)
I have. Showing them a script is just more for my own personal satisfaction at this point to have someone else see that I am capable of things, just different competencies.
I have an interview with a place that came highly recommended next week. So, I might just take a Ritalin today and really put work into making a killer presentation for the interview.
The job market is crap, and I am desperate to get this role, lol. It matches up much more strongly with my actual work experience as well.
Wish me luck :)
Good luck!!!
“Well I did build it, so I could easily build it again if I lost it somehow.”
Of course, they were probably just going for an easy gotcha question to see if they could build their case to dismiss you. I hate PIPs, I believe well-liked employees tend not to get put on them, and it’s just a legalistic process for dumping people without repercussions.
Depends how you use them and if they are set up to actually help the person. I’ve seen a few people on PIPs really improve which was good to see.
They put me on it 3 months into my probation, and then only gave me 5 weeks of review, so it was rough honestly.
But I’m commuting 5 hours a day on public transport for this job, so in a way, I’m also glad it’s going to be over soon.
That’s insane
That’s incredibly rough. I haven’t had anything like that since I was a kid, two buses and a ferry each way in the dark of night (uphill both ways, even! shakes cane). I have no idea how I survived, hope you move on to better things!
PIPs don’t even hold a candle to progressive discipline
Isn’t a PIP just a final step in progressive discipline tho
If you’ve got the skills, might be better of looking for a company that needs people to automate such things. Sounds like it could be a better fitting role for you.
You will still need to mask a lot unfortunately. Please understand that your relationship with your employer is contradictory on a fundamental level. They want to extract the most labor from you for the lowest cost and you want to maximize the price of your time for the company while minimizing the amount of power you have to put into doing a given job. I want to emphasize that I don’t mean this in an “as lazily as possible” way, but in an “as efficient as possible” way. Mental energy is a resource and of course you want to manage it responsibly. People generally are willing to spend an extra amount at work every now and again because they want to do a good job, but not constantly.
Now a neurotypical person doesn’t need to put in so much effort to do the same job, putting you at a competitive disadvantage. Which is why those protections exist, but at the end of the day the company doesn’t care. The individuals at a company might, don’t get me wrong, but overall the system is putting pressure on the managers to get the most amount of labor from their underlings for the least amount of resources. Plus your manager has the same contradiction with the company, they want to minimize the effort while maintaining an adequate quality of work. They most likely are also willing to expend more energy than they normally expect to spend at their work, in order to get you what you need, just because they’re a nice person and helping others is a nice thing to do, but they also don’t want to do this constantly and how much they’re willing to spend is at their discretion.
All to say that you probably will have to pick your battles. If you need a specific accommodation that very clearly is necessary for someone with ADHD (so obvious even a neurotypical can see it) or something that is already accepted common practice then they will likely approve it with no problems because they know about those protections. If they hire a paraplegic person they understand they need to make the workplace wheelchair accessible. Like, obviously.
But if you ask for something more unorthodox (and I’d argue your autohotkey script falls under that category) and it’s not a big deal the managers might give it just because they want you to have it. I mean they are people to, they want to be nice and helpful (generally speaking) just because it’s nice to be nice. But they are neurotypicals. They do not understand that you might need need whatever it is you’re asking for but they think of it more as something to aid you because of “your condition”. So if you ask for things that they don’t think are appropriate or if you keep asking for a lot of accommodations then they might be less inclined to help you and just default to “well they are going to have to spend more of their energy because I don’t want to spend more of mine (anymore)”.
So what to do when you’re denied? You can drop it entirely (giving the impression it actually wasn’t necessary after all), drop it and raise it every now and again whenever you feel like you have earned some good-will, look for alternatives or try to bolster your case on why you need it and how it relates to your ADHD in a provable manner. You will want to talk to a lawyer before going that route though, lawyers can give you advice not just on how to fight a lawsuit but on what kind of documentation is generally accepted or how to best present your case to your workplace. You will need to be diplomatic though, you need to convey that you need this, that you believe you are entitled to this but at the same time you probably don’t want to openly threaten them with the law and that you will make life difficult for them because you still have to work with them. However you also need to be resolute enough that they don’t think you are a pushover. It’s really fucking hard, I explored this option once (not relative to my AuDHD but something else worker-rights related) and decided to not pursue it because I was quitting soon anyway and had too much other stuff on my plate.
Tl;dr: Just because the law demanding equality exists doesn’t mean you automatically have equality. You still have to balance how much you need something with how accomodating your workplace is and how much you’re willing to fight for it (and deal with the side-effects of having fought them).
Is there a reason you showed your boss the tool? I would expect any given coworker to keep something like that to themselves, both so it doesn’t get stolen, and so they don’t potentially get accused of “slacking” as it seems like your manager might be hinting at.
If your tool is too good they might make it mandatory, and then everyone will speed up, putting you in the same hole you started in. Imo, your personal accessibility tools and systems are your own concern, and are only to be shared if you so desire.
Speed isn’t really the issue - it’s the accuracy of my work. Since I have to click and fill multiple fields when entering data, it’s easy for me to miss one field, or forget sending an email out after the entry etc. That has been the main problem which landed me in the PIP.
That being said, the tool is very rudimentary and relies on clicking exact coordinates on the screen. If you so much as nudge your mouse the coordinates will be off and it won’t do what you want it to.
No one on the team would have the understanding to maintain it once something breaks. For example, a task like adding a contact to an event we’re hosting, it’s coded to add it only to that event because I’ve programmed the script to open the dropdown, scroll and click specifically on that event name. The existing functions will be dated very quickly and they wouldn’t know how to update that.
Considering I had to ask IT to allow the software specifically for my use, they wouldn’t be able to do much quickly if my manager had demanded they modify it to work for them.
So, I’m not very concerned that they would be able to take it and use it after I leave. It’s on a technical level that’s not IT level, but above their basic understanding of computers unless they want to take time and learn AHK.
But given how my manager sees the tool, I’m not convinced they understand the power and usefulness of it enough to try and take it for themselves anyway. The old ways work fine for them, just not for me.
Then if the tool is just for managing the problem with your ADHD, I would say your manager’s question was inappropriate.
“My concern is, would you be able to follow the process and do the task if you were to lose access to this tool you have built?”
If that tool was a wheelchair, do you think they would be asking the same question? They’re clearly misunderstanding. The tool exists because it’s already known that, without it, you can’t follow the process and do the task, due to your disability. Really, they should be providing you with these accomodations. Allowing you to develop them yourself is the bare minimum
deleted by creator
I think they’re literally just concerned for you to be not becoming dependent on a tool.
They said they need it in order to not commit as many errors, suggesting they are dependant on it. Why is depending on a tool a bad thing?
They might be thinking “i don’t want an employee who can’t focus for filling out a form” but this isn’t out of dislike of you, it is because of concern, also.
I’m sorry I have to ask, but do you have ADHD yourself? Because this really sounds dismissive of the fact that ADHD people have to spend a lot of extra mental energy on a task, especially on a task that requires mental focus. That’s not “concerning”, that’s what ADHD is. That’s why often very important stuff just doesn’t get done. We aren’t lazy, we’re literally incapable of doing the things that we want to do but end up not doing, like e.g. filling out important paperwork, doing household chores etc. Or need an inappropriate amount of energy that has to come out of something else. Look up executive dysfunction please.
So you should have gone “Okay I’ll go one day jaybe two days without using the tool, to show you that I can. I just thought it could improve my efficiency.”
No! The point is that they can’t, that their reports are more error-prone without this aid that they have built. This is like asking a hard-of-hearing person to listen harder for a couple days just to prove that they can still hear in order to prove that they need their hearing aid.
I appreciate your empathy on this.
I wish I didn’t have to build a tool just so I could achieve mediocrity on par with my neurotypical manager, but them’s the lemons you get with life at times.
I didn’t want to be more likely to miss out filling one field out of 15 when doing data entry, but the brain doesn’t like sequences and “following the process”, so I’ve made a thing that not only does the work faster, but makes it so I don’t miss anything, which I think a competent manager would have seen as wins all around.
It was strange being spoken to about why I did the first round of steps then didn’t send out a confirmation email, which is when I realised that it was because my brain just felt like it was too much energy to do that next step since it felt like starting a whole new (small) task, which I understand that fellow ADHD folks struggle with. Obviously I couldn’t explain that to them, could I?
This job definitely was not a good fit for me, and I’ve also learned from others I’ve met here about how I could better set myself up to succeed in a future role, and also the words to advocate for my disability with. (I also don’t love that this is, in fact a disability. But disabled folks really don’t get a choice.)
I wish we didn’t have these massive obstacles to overcome just to function “normally”. I hope you’re in a place where folks are kinder with you.
deleted by creator
yet here you are, responding 😄 I’m just gonna go ahead and assume you’re a neurotypical barging into a neurodiv space to give your completely uninformed take
In your case thats annoying because you clearly know what youre doing. But this is a great question I feel like 0 managers are asking now that their teams are brainslugged by chatbots. Once that token cost skyrockets and they lose access youre gonna have some atrophied brains to re train.
This job sounds like a bad fit for you, all round. I’m a less than detail oriented accountant and nobody questions me when I say monotonous tasks lead to errors. That’s true for most humans, we aren’t machines. But my job knows I am good at figuring things out, good at finding new ways to do things, good at understanding things.
They don’t see that it’s because I can’t do the same thing the same way twice, and am fundamentally incapable of doing any work I can’t understand.
You didn’t need to tell your boss HOW you were doing better work. You were doing better work. It’s the end product that counts.
Because it took a while into the PIP to actually get the tool right, they basically said that there was not enough improvement in the given time. Which, again, 5 weeks?
I would love to learn more about your process though. I’m not an accountant, but I have a friend who is, who is likely neurodivergent who has been struggling, and would appreciate any support and tips they could get.
Our office is full of oddball people. Tips first:
I think making friends is the most important move. Talk with people a little even if you don’t personally need it. Learn how they talk, what they are working on, what are the pain points for them in their own work.
Pay attention to communication styles. The VP of finance, I can just send her a message like “hi, X, you didn’t send the file, could you send it?” But my boss (who does have ADD) I have to go talk to him before I send him anything, and repeat what I told him inside the email, he is not bothered by that.
If you are good at getting to the end product using different paths, that shows more understanding than someone who can follow a process without missing steps. Make sure to ask more about what result they want, or what they want to know, less about how to do it.
And know when to cut your losses - I know about myself that I shine in a startup situation and at a chaotic time at any company. I can solve problems for other people! If I worked somewhere people didn’t like to get suggestions, I would be so irritating, right? So I don’t work in those places and I cultivate the environment I want too. Eventually this job will get too corporate and I’ll probably find a startup for my last job then retire if possible.
Being in tune with other people works so well that I tell you here - we have a boring daily meeting and I was in there one day just trying to think of animals whose names started with the letter C. Because man, that meeting is so dull and repetitive. The next day I asked when we went in “what animals start with the letter D?” Everyone plays this game during the meeting now, even my boss. We did animals, jobs, now movies. Because it’s not so distracting or disruptive, and it makes the meetings more fun, every once in a while someone will stop and say “Fast and Furious!” And I write it down.
If their struggle is because they are in a more political sort of bureaucratic place, where the heirarchy is strict and enforced, 'you have your boss talk to my boss" place, where people are angling to take other people’s jobs and you are given responsibility without empowerment, I would say find a different job. There are positions where the ability to ride out chaos and see new ways of working are valuable.
I am a senior now and a lot of what I do is take the harder tasks, try to clean them up and then hand them off to someone else, now with a good process. There is always another problem.
It will sound stupid, but the main thing you need, to succeed in a job, any job, is to understand people. It comes naturally to some. For those of us not natural at it, you have to do it on purpose - mirror people’s communication styles some, remember to say good morning.
Also set so many reminders on your laptop or phone.
Those are wonderful tips, for both me and my friend.
I have made it a point to get to know and be friendly with people, though more on my pay level (it always pays to have friends in IT!) and in unrelated departments.
One friend has actually been incredibly helpful in helping me prepare for my upcoming interview, and they had worked there before and shared a lot of information that wouldn’t have been easy to publicly research.
I’ve done the reminders thing more and more now too - enough that when I forgot if I was meant to be present to assist in clearing up an event, I turned up anyway since it was in my calendar (and was told that I needed to retain what my manager said better…).
Thank you for taking your time to share your experience. I hope that if I become a manager some day to someone else, I’ll have learned what not to do from my current manager.
It’s like that argument math teachers used to make, right? “You won’t always have a calculator in your pocket!” Except, yes. And if you had a job that required a calculator you would own a couple to take with you, and you would become proficient in the maths anyway even if you used the calculator because you’re doing it so frequently. And when do you ever need to solve maths under pressure, how rare is that.
But teachers wanted you to be capable of doing the job without a calculator because they had this imagining that you had zero knowledge of how to do a maths, if you used a calculator.
But you have to know how to do the sum to enter it into the calculator. It’s just useless busywork for busyworks sake, not using a tool that speeds up an unnecessarily time consuming job.
They made electric mixers, does that mean you should always beat cake mix by hand just in case you have an emergency cake making need?
You know the job so well you built a program capable of doing the job, and your manager is worried you don’t know how to do the job, instead of seeing that you are actually improving your time management, and making the job more efficient and less error prone. All humans are prone to error, that should be a universal understanding.
Sit your manager down and get them to use the program and then ask them or tell them how it works, explain the mechanics and how to build it. Explain time saving and efficiency.
I’m glad you’re quitting this manager thinks you’re incapable in the face of huge evidence otherwise. What a dick!
I…actually enjoy mixing my basic cakes and brownies with a fork. I met my husband as a poor student, and as a lazy adult, I just don’t want to clean the mixer 😂 (he uses the mixer instead and bakes more often)
I’m planning to speak with my manager’s manager to address the fundamental hole in their understanding, but with the personal understanding that I’m on the way the out no matter what. After the review last week I was honestly just done.
The manager even asked how I was feeling and such during the review, but I was in no degree of confidence to say more than “about as well as someone in my situation can feel, I suppose.”
Their manager (HOD) can tell them where they’ve messed up after I’ve demonstrated the script to them in front of HR (who was very helpful and said they’d have a harder time dismissing me if I brought up and demonstrated what other things hadn’t been done to ensure my success in the PIP) next week, but I am going to be leaving anyway.
I think I’ve worked to show my dedication when I commute over 5 hours a day (5am wake up!) to and from for this job, have not had any attendance issues and have been generally very open to helping wherever I can.
I can tell that what I bring to the table isn’t appreciated here, and the best thing I can do for myself is to find somewhere that does.
it sounds like the manager, regardless of any overt compliance with accommodation & equality regulations, has an underlying mindset that the required tasks should only be done in the way that it was originally designed. in other words, they may be a normativity bully at heart. at least, many that’s how many avg IQ neurotypical managers sometimes behave.
i admit, this is only one possibility, and heavily influenced by my traumatic interactions with managers.
anyway I’m sure you’re already aware of this type of people. keep doing what you’re doing. 👍
