Apologies if this should be posted somewhere else.
I have had this TV for about 7 years and have never had this pop up before. About a month ago, I bought a router that uses OpenWRT. With that, I setup up Adguard and specifically one of the lists that is supposed to block devices from phoning home.
Am I nuts thinking that this pop up is due to the TV not being able to offload what has been recorded? How would I check that?
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your Samsung TV includes Firefox & Waterfox?
They make it essentially impossible to check using wireshark because conversations and other ad tech data leave the TV encrypted so it’s harder to sue the company. So it’s not like you could attach another pi and run wireshark on it before it goes to OpenWrt.
I am guessing the hard drive is not removable, because if they did that people would poke around into their ad tech, which could be doing illegal/questionable things, and they probably don’t want that.
I don’t know if there’s a technical way to figure this out. You would likely have to have electrical engineering or electrical circuitry experience and sauter the drive off the board, and if Samsung is smart, they will make it so the drive no longer works if it’s not interfacing with some proprietary motherboard chip. Samsung is pretty smart, there’s a lot of money in ad tech and smart TVs, so I don’t think there’s an easy way to do this.
Really, the only way to find out would be to sue them, saying the TV is defective, and also possibly add a claim for a tort like intentional invasion of privacy (which they would try to get dropped) and then subpoena their engineers for depositions and also try to get a court order that forces Samsung to provide a method to enable reading the internal hard drive (and I’m not sure if a judge would do that). But they would probably ignore such a court order unless there was a contempt order or try to settle to avoid decrypting or showing what the files are. It’s also hard to make a claim of intentional invasion of privacy (if that tort or something similar is available in your jurisdiction) when there’s mere suspicion that such a thing is going on. If there are other Samsung models that have been shown to invade privacy, you could probably say that shows Samsung is engaging in invasion of privacy and is why the message is showing up and let Samsung try to justify why that doesn’t make sense in a dismissal motion.
There’s probably a binding arbitration clause you agreed to, but you’d have to sue them and then when they argue the claim should be dismissed for binding arbitration, you would say you paid prior to a binding arbitration agreement and you never personally agreed to such an agreement (ie, you didn’t see it and were just clicking forward, someone you hired on craigslist to set up the device clicked through it, etc.) if that’s true or, if it’s not true, admit that you paid for the tv and subsequently signed the agreement because otherwise the TV wasn’t usable and argue it’s unenforceable. Depending on the case law and where you are, that argument may or may not work. I don’t know the law in this area (post-sale binding arbitration contracts) and if there are any ways around it ever.
I don’t know if a lawyer would take this on a contingency. On the one hand, it’s sort of iffy: they are providing a number for repair and so filing a defective product lawsuit is sort of questionable. On the other hand, why should a consumer have to spend time rebooting a smart TV because it’s ad tech is collecting so much data? Isn’t that inherently defective? You could file it yourself pro se if you had the time. Filing fees are really expensive, like 500 dollars or something. If you’re indigent it’s free. If this were my TV, I’d probably just file a pro se federal lawsuit, but it’s easier for me to do something like that than most people.
A lawsuit and just demanding depositions of people would be easier if you can get past an motion to dismiss based on binding arbitration claims.
Have you tried talking less?
I heard that when the TVs can’t reach the web, they try continuously, and it could be the system logs got full off all the errors, or they want a reset to try to get back online.
My 2 new LGs are isolated. I just need dumb tvs.
Root them! I just did our LG TV and it’s fantastic. All the data collection is off and I can install homebrew applications. Glasshouse gets me access to a load of features, including a proper screensaver and a much improved, highly customizable home screen. The default screen is shite.
The guide is at https://tv.slada.sk/guides/rooting-guide if you’re interested.
Thank god for this TV mess. I finally rooted my TV, it took all of five minutes.
The native Plex (PlxNative) someone cooked up is buttery-smooth. Almost shed a tear my media centre doesn’t feel like a 10yo android tablet.Any docs? What is the brand of yours?
LG. Start here: https://cani.rootmy.tv/
It’s a universal directory of exploits.Note that PlxNative needs no root, I just found it browsing homebrew app store after the fact.
Obviously there are other good reasons to root.I just did the same. Surprisingly simple and worth the little time required.
https://tv.slada.sk/guides/rooting-guide is a graphical step by step guide that’s a bit more up to date - cani.rootmy.tv claimed I couldn’t.
If you haven’t found it already, I recommend Glasshouse. Fucking fantastic.
Edit: tagging @Squizzy@lemmy.world
I stopped connecting my TVs to the internet as soon as manufacturers started using android to operate them.
Why?
Because I figured they would doing what they are doing. And maybe back then they weren’t so bad quite yet, but I need to be adjusting my opsec before I’m compromised, not after.
Evaluate the potential not the proven.
Just not connecting them probably isn’t enough. They’ll check for open wifi to call home on.
People walk by on the sidewalk close enough for my TV to phone home. I need to root it or crack it open and physically burn the comms to cut it off.
Shit is crazy
HEC would like a word
HEC would like a word.
HEC?
EDIT: HDMI Ethernet Channel. It’s a feature that can run network connectivity over the HDMI cable itself.
Yes well we must move ever forward in our security posture and not let the idea of perfection stop us from becoming better.
I have heard of HEC attacks but I think we’re a ways off from it being a realized threat in our homes.
There are too many more cost effective and convenient options at large to collect data more efficiently and effectively.
Having said that, shielded HDMI seems like an answer to it.
I unbeknownst to me had a receiver and tv that supported this protocol. And the receiver had an ethernet connection. Imagine my surprise when one day the TV popped up that it had a software update when it wasn’t on wifi.
Yeah, sneaky. I once was less concerned about my receiver, but eventually I relegated it to the same status of mistrust and unplugged it from the network.
I don’t use built-in streaming music services on it anyway.
I just disconnected my samsung tv from my wifi yesterday because it had a popup it was doing a software update. It was already substantially laggier than when I bought it. Whenever I use it I’m either playing a game or using the pi I have plugged into it so I just want it to switch inputs quickly. Only reason I hadn’t killed it yet in my transition to FOSS is because my wife uses it for netflix. Maybe we’ll use this as a good break point to get her off the netflix subscription completely. I die a little inside when I see it on my credit card statement.
Sam was here and took your RAM
I sort of love the idea of Sam living on past his eventual death as some sort of computer problem cryptid.
Beware The Saltman, he’ll creep into your home and feast on your RAM. He’ll corrupt your hard drive. He’ll melt your GPU.
I like it. The Saltman is like Slenderman for Gen Alpha. They’ll sit around the fire barrel telling horror stories how The Saltman came out of the woods at night and snatched their electronics.
We’re overdue for some child scarring Grimms’ Fairy Tales for the modern era, this can be the first.
I endorse this.
Perhaps he’ll take it with a scam
Well that’s most probably what happened.
GamersNexus’ report showed that their LG TV would hold onto logs and recordings until it could reach the server to send them.
If you block it from reaching the server, I guess they never delete.
It probably ran out of space because the logs were getting spammed with “server unreachable” messages (because it could not send privacy-invading tracking data).
That’d be the ultimate irony, if it’s not indefinitely holding the data but just the logs from not being able to send the most recent data. Still bad either way, of course.
Kind of wild it has “factory reset” and still keeps your network settings. What else does it keep?
Thatis the setting they need configured to exfiltrate your personal data.
Yeah you’re right but I think OP was asking what else. If they’re keeping the network settings what other logs and data persist through a possibly intentionally mislabelled “factory reset”?
No, you’re not nuts to think that. For starters, you could try to clear the cache to free up some space:
I want to see if someone has a suggestion to verify. If I can’t then I’m going to clear the cache and then see if it happens again.
It’d be nice to just be able to have a direct look at the filesystem. I did look briefly around for options, but it doesn’t appear to be trivial.
I kind of figured. I appreciate you looking, thank you.
Factory reset it then don’t connect it to the Internet at all. It looks like you have a computer connected to it, just use that. KDE even has a big screen interface.
“except for network settings”. You can’t delete your Wi-Fi details, even with a factory reset. I tried to add a second network (hotspot) then disable that network, but it just reconnected to the old one.
I gave up and added a MAC address block on my router.
you can’t just change the WiFi ssid and password?
Not on the TV. It won’t accept one that doesn’t work, and remembers and reverts to any old one if it can’t connect to the new one.
I could change the router SSID or password, but I have far too many devices, and a MAC address block was the quick option.
If its android be careful. Found out the hard way trying to fixed-ip a tablet on my 3D printer that they can report a false macID and it changes
Fyi on Android this is a setting you can disable if you want, when you edit the network there should be a privacy option.
There’s not really a reason to have a randomised MAC on a home network, but for pretty much everywhere else it’s a good thing the default is to have it randomised per connection.
Actually did that, but it kept changing regardless. Samsung 9 tablet FWIW
So here’s an idea.
When you first get it, connect it to a working guest network that you just made.
Then shutdown the guest network and make sure there are no open Wi-Fi networks in your area.Great advice which is completely inapplicable to the person you are giving it to, considering they already set their TV up ages ago.
And the advice to anyone about to get a new Samsung or LG TV is “Don’t.”
get a new Samsung or LG TV is “Don’t.”
I have seen the answer to that…
The person absolutely wants 4K 50" for some reason and monitors that come for that much are industrial ones that cost 5x as much.
I am more than happy with 27" and don’t even require 4K, so MSI, ViewSonic etc work well.Dumb video projectors are a thing.
Alternative: set up a dummy wifi network, then coonect your TV to it, then configure that network such that it’s not connected to the Internet.
Yeah, but you will have to make a fake Samsung/LG server with the correct IP address, use a quantum computer to get their https private keys and reforge a certificate for that fake server and implement all required API endpoints before you can make the TV activate.
a Mac address block works but may not work on newer devices. next time you may have to bite the bullet.
About a month ago, I bought a router that uses OpenWRT. With that, I setup up Adguard and specifically one of the lists that is supposed to block devices from phoning home.
How would I check that?
AdGuard used DNS to enforce its blocklists, you can setup your own DNS sinkhole server on your network relatively easily, point your devices to it, and view what servers your devices on your network are connecting to.
This may work today, but it take very little effort for the TV manufacturers to default to DNS over HTTPS to bypass these DNS based filtering. I’d recommend keeping TV’s off the network completely. I wish the DRM mafia weren’t keeping open competitors away. There’s no reason we should have privacy respecting TV boxes, except that the power is in the streaming platform companies hands, and they don’t want to enable anything even slightly open.
Block all other DNS by port and IP both from everything by pi-hole. Even if they hardcode 1.1.1.1 or Quad9 or Google or whatever, it would be exceedingly difficult to reach an IP address that is forbidden on the network at the router level. HTTPS will just fail (and likely fall back to network DNS settings as it should).
Owning (owning) your router/firewall makes this harder for them to bypass. Block all DNS outbound, allow only from Pihole (or other private DNS server), redirect all DNS to Pihole. The machines you don’t/can’t own will think they’re reaching out to external DNS but the replies come from Pihole. I haven’t dug too far into whether this works if they force DNS over HTTPS. Is that not 853/tls?! My convoluted and possibly placebo setup.
I suppose there are plenty of ways around this. My config is port based, so if they change ports or run a tunnel through something my Pihole doesn’t block… Sigh. Yeah, just don’t connect these crap boxes up to the network in the first place.
Yup. And it’s worth noting that my two smart TVs are the noisiest devices on my network, by far. Like it’s not even close. In a heavy day of doing nothing but doomscrolling and casual browsing, my phone may get 1700-2000 blocked requests. My smart TVs typically hit 5500-6000 blocked requests each.
Which, when you do the math, comes out to a failed request every ~15 seconds. Which means they’re probably attempting to reach the server, getting blocked, timing out after ~15 seconds, and then retrying. If they were logging each failed attempt as an error and never purging their old logs, I can see how it would slowly but surely fill their storage space.
