I know it’s a joke, but many Tesla “solar” charging stations did actually use diesel generators a few years ago. Citation needed, but I can’t be assed to look up the article.
Okay…now that the left is finding every reason to hate on Tesla, allow me to help: this is, and always has been, a massive fucking myth. It never was more energy efficient than a regular ICE vehicle.
Mainly because of its construction. Mining the cobalt, etc for the batteries is very energy intensive. Then there’s the tires. AFAIK, you can’t just throw any old tires on a Tesla vehicle. You have to buy their special tires with all these sensors in them. I think there are knockoffs, but still. You also have to change the tires more frequently than traditional ICE vehicles, because they wear out faster, because the Teslas are heavier. A car weighs as much as an SUV or truck (3,582 lbs - 4,065 lbs), the Model X Plaid weighs 5390 lbs, and the Cybertruck weighs 6000-7000 lbs.
The damage doesn’t stop with the vehicle itself; we must also consider the impact of heavier vehicles on the roads. It will also cause the roads to wear out faster than normal.
Unless it’s crashed or burned in protest or whatever, IIRC, a Tesla vehicle can redeem itself from its massive environmental cost to produce & such. But only after many hundreds of thousands of miles on the road, and by the time that occurs, you’ll need to replace the battery. “Tesla batteries can last between 300,000 to 500,000 miles, which translates to about 1,500 battery charge cycles.” Kiss another $13K - $20K goodbye to swap out that battery for a new one.
So with its far simpler & straightforward construction out of readily available material, coupled with a sprawling existing infrastructure…the ICE car is more eco-friendly and cheaper to operate! And the hybrid vehicles are better than both full-electric & ICE, best of both worlds.
The tire thing is completely made up. Yes, they sell their premium tires but they are not necessary and do not contain electronics. https://www.tesla.com/support/tires
You are arguing a side rather than looking at facts.
You are correct that it is best to have a lightweight car if you have to have one. But an electric one does take over in environmental cost relative quickly and is cheaper in countries that don’t subsidize fossil fuels and tax emissions. In addition the air quality in cities improves.
Or you could use literally any form of public transportation and kick the ass of both. ICE or not cars are just a stupid waste of space and resources. They need to be phased out. As a “lefty” I have never advocates for electric cars. They were always a distraction to try to keep car based infrastructure alive.
Not all of us live in cities, nor would we ever want to. I do not have access to public transportation to take me to & from one of my jobs.
If you are able, yes, kind of amazing perks & I’d use it. It would certainly save me more than a little money in car insurance, maintenance, fuel, potential for accidents, etc. But it is not a feasible option, specifically for me.
I lived in a small town in the Netherlands for 3 months last year for work. Never once needed a car. You’re imagining a world where youre not using a car in a world built for cars. Do they have their use. Sure. But the scale at which we use them and the world that we build around their use needs to be done away with.
Debatable, it depends on what fraction of the power was supplied by the generator. The chemical-kinetic-electric energy conversion incurs great losses because of waste heat, and portable diesel generators are not always built with efficiency in mind. A charging station operating on 100% diesel to power an EV is much less efficient than a modern ICE vehicle of a similar mass sans batteries.
Last I ran the numbers, it seemed like on paper charging off an industrial scale generator was around 20-30% more fuel efficient per km than directly running an ICE car, but I based it on the advertised efficiency values of a random average seeming diesel car, compared to rather pessimistic charging loss and efficiency numbers for the EV. The inefficiency of even modern ICE cars is quite astonishing, even compared to the engine in a generator that can constantly run at the optimal RPM and load for efficiency.
A charging station operating on 100% diesel to power an EV is much less efficient than a modern ICE vehicle of a similar mass sans batteries.
Citation needed. Do ICE engines not get hot and therefore also have great losses because of waste heat?
Presumably a generator making electricity for a charging station would only run when electricity is needed, while an ICE engine would be losing energy to heat the entire time the vehicle is idling in traffic.
Why would a diesel generator not be made to efficient and why are ICE engines always made to be efficient? How do you know which kind of generator they were using? Why would they use the generator for 100% of the energy needed?
Keeping in mind that this is a hypothetical scenario and that I did point out that the overall efficiency is dependent on how much of the power is generated by renewables and how much by the on-site diesel generator:
An ICE skips the conversion to electricity and its storage. Losses and losses.
An ICE vehicle weighs less than an EV of a similar size because it doesn’t have batteries (see this chart to compare the energy density (MJ/kg, horizontal axis) of lithium batteries to gasoline and diesel)
There is a point in the diesel/solar ratio at which the system’s overall efficiency is higher with an EV than an ICE, but I don’t know where that is because, once again, you’re pissing yourself over a hypothetical scenario.
It doesn’t really matter actually. Electric motors are so much better at delivering power, that you will get more range from a gallon of gas by towing an ‘flat battery’ EV behind a truck and then driving the EV than you will just driving the truck without towing the EV.
To clarify, ICE produce so much waste heat that defrosting and heating your car is essentially free (energetically speaking) because the car needed to dump that excess heat anyway.
BEVs don’t even generate enough waste heat to maintain the battery temp, and frequently rely on heaters to maintain battery and cabin temperature.
So saying BEVs create waste heat too is technically true, but it seriously undersells the scale of difference between the BEV and the ICE.
We actually do. The BMW i3 came with a gas generator as an optional range extender feature. It was not very popular. The majority of drivers drive less than 40 miles a day, and EVs easily encompass that distance, even if you have to run the heat.
And yes, an electric vehicle powered by a combustion motor absolutely is better in terms of efficiency down to extremely small scales. We’ve been using diesel electric vehicles for decades now because of their efficiency, torque, and long service life. They’re called ‘trains’.
We’ve had those for freight trains for decades now. That is also the model for many hybrid vehicles. They are well proven to be more efficient. Also, they don’t need to use the trunk, there’s a perfectly good space available where the less efficient engine used to be.
Not to mention the electrical energy stored in their cells has a fairly strong possibility of having been generated by a power plant consuming coal or petroleum.
Even when powered by fossil fuel power plants, electric vehicles are still usually better in terms of CO2 emissions. Power plants benefit from scale, so they’re a lot more efficient than the tiny combustion engines in cars. Regenerative braking also saves a ton of energy when driving in the city.
The thing is, that EVs, and Tesla/Musk in particular are trying to continue a war against public transport that the car industry has been fighting for 100+ years at this point. Using the same power sources, an electric train is orders of magnitude more efficient than an EV, and even a diesel train is emitting less CO2. Hell, a diesel bus is probably still emitting less.
Of course, public transit is far better. Unfortunately it’s often easier (especially in the US) to convince people to buy a different kind of car than it is to convince them to use public transit.
I live in Alberta where most of our power comes from natural gas. I’m also an emissions and sustainability engineer. I did the math on environmental payback for an EV where I live and the EV is WILDLY better for the environment despite the power potentially coming from fossil fuels.
If you tell me roughly where you live I can calculate emissions per kilometre/mile including the energy that goes into manufacturing the vehicle.
There’s absolutely jurisdictions where EVs don’t make much difference - but most places they do.
(large scale power generation is pretty effecient and most jurisdictions have some renewables in the mix. A car’s gas engine is much lower efficiency most places)
No disputes from me on your assessment. In principle I’m a big fan of EVs as a maturing technology and my only hangup with Tesla is its association with the person who is its CEO and the role he’s chosen to play in US politics.
I’ll gladly champion a vehicle that has incredible efficiency in converting its stored energy into mechanical work, especially when that stored energy came from a source that’s 40-60% thermally efficient (for combustion-based processes) or derived from solar/wind/geothermal/hydro sources and can be partially recuperated via braking. It’s too bad there aren’t more EV options for people who want or need a 3/4 or 1-ton pickup (of which I happen to be a big fan for hauling/towing/plowing).
The one area where I’m still dubious of electric vehicles is in cold climates, although I think I’ve read heat pumps are being used with success. Otherwise, I’d propose a small auxiliary tank (preferably propane, if infrastructure permits) and a “Chinese diesel heater”-type unit be installed simply for cabin heating/defogging. Few energy conversions make me cringe more than that of high-exergy electricity (derived from non-renewables) directly into thermal energy, convenient as it may be for the end user.
Of course, it’d be nice if that combustive heat could be generated from sustainably-harvested hydrogen instead of an extracted hydrocarbon, but at that point, a fuel cell running a heat pump would be even better, with resistive waste heat from the FC an added bonus. But now it all feels a bit Rube Goldbergian…
Anyway, what’s your take on EV use in climates with harsh winters (such as Canada/Alaska/Montana/Wyoming/Minnesota), especially when long range might be needed?
My partner and I backcountry ski, iceclimb etc. One of the reasons we went with the Ioniq 5 was that we can sleep in the back and use the heat pump to keep us warm.
We recently did a weeklong ski trip with it. We drove from from Golden, BC back to Calgary, AB (250km/150mi) in -16C (3F) and used 70% of a charge. One day on that trip, we were backcountry skiing in similar weather and the car sat outside in that weather for 8 hours. No loss of battery.
One of the unexpected features I really enjoy is that I never pump gas in the cold any more. I programmed my work schedule and the car pre-warms for my commute. I get home, plug the car in, and it’s always ready to go.
I have a few family members with heat pumps (I’m in Canada) and they work well. They do need to be supplemented for the coldest days, but they have an electric heater integrated into the system for that. Last month was particularly cold (every day was below freezing) and resulted in some very high power bills, but still worked out to be less costly than oil or even wood.
In terms of EVs not working well in the cold… yeah and neither do Diesel engines. Need to plug in a block heater if you want your diesel engine to start on a cold morning. Seems a really easy fix to have something similar for an EV, and since you’re plugging it in anyway, it shouldn’t be a big problem.
EVs are kinda a no-brainer in terms of energy usage. Way cheaper than gas or diesel, only problem is there’s a significant upfront cost at the moment. Once some lithium mines come online and we get some economies of scale going on making the batteries that upfront cost drops too. Other than the battery, an EV is way simpler than an ICE vehicle, and all studies have shown they will last significantly longer than an ICE vehicle. Electric motors aren’t all that complicated, the batteries are getting to be mature tech now, so there’s less that can go wrong with them than with complicated ICE powered vehicle.
I know it’s a joke, but many Tesla “solar” charging stations did actually use diesel generators a few years ago. Citation needed, but I can’t be assed to look up the article.
Still more energy efficient than a regular ICE car.
Okay…now that the left is finding every reason to hate on Tesla, allow me to help: this is, and always has been, a massive fucking myth. It never was more energy efficient than a regular ICE vehicle.
Mainly because of its construction. Mining the cobalt, etc for the batteries is very energy intensive. Then there’s the tires. AFAIK, you can’t just throw any old tires on a Tesla vehicle. You have to buy their special tires with all these sensors in them. I think there are knockoffs, but still. You also have to change the tires more frequently than traditional ICE vehicles, because they wear out faster, because the Teslas are heavier. A car weighs as much as an SUV or truck (3,582 lbs - 4,065 lbs), the Model X Plaid weighs 5390 lbs, and the Cybertruck weighs 6000-7000 lbs.
The damage doesn’t stop with the vehicle itself; we must also consider the impact of heavier vehicles on the roads. It will also cause the roads to wear out faster than normal.
Unless it’s crashed or burned in protest or whatever, IIRC, a Tesla vehicle can redeem itself from its massive environmental cost to produce & such. But only after many hundreds of thousands of miles on the road, and by the time that occurs, you’ll need to replace the battery. “Tesla batteries can last between 300,000 to 500,000 miles, which translates to about 1,500 battery charge cycles.” Kiss another $13K - $20K goodbye to swap out that battery for a new one.
So with its far simpler & straightforward construction out of readily available material, coupled with a sprawling existing infrastructure…the ICE car is more eco-friendly and cheaper to operate! And the hybrid vehicles are better than both full-electric & ICE, best of both worlds.
The tire thing is completely made up. Yes, they sell their premium tires but they are not necessary and do not contain electronics. https://www.tesla.com/support/tires
You are arguing a side rather than looking at facts.
You are correct that it is best to have a lightweight car if you have to have one. But an electric one does take over in environmental cost relative quickly and is cheaper in countries that don’t subsidize fossil fuels and tax emissions. In addition the air quality in cities improves.
Or you could use literally any form of public transportation and kick the ass of both. ICE or not cars are just a stupid waste of space and resources. They need to be phased out. As a “lefty” I have never advocates for electric cars. They were always a distraction to try to keep car based infrastructure alive.
Not all of us live in cities, nor would we ever want to. I do not have access to public transportation to take me to & from one of my jobs.
If you are able, yes, kind of amazing perks & I’d use it. It would certainly save me more than a little money in car insurance, maintenance, fuel, potential for accidents, etc. But it is not a feasible option, specifically for me.
I lived in a small town in the Netherlands for 3 months last year for work. Never once needed a car. You’re imagining a world where youre not using a car in a world built for cars. Do they have their use. Sure. But the scale at which we use them and the world that we build around their use needs to be done away with.
Debatable, it depends on what fraction of the power was supplied by the generator. The chemical-kinetic-electric energy conversion incurs great losses because of waste heat, and portable diesel generators are not always built with efficiency in mind. A charging station operating on 100% diesel to power an EV is much less efficient than a modern ICE vehicle of a similar mass sans batteries.
Last I ran the numbers, it seemed like on paper charging off an industrial scale generator was around 20-30% more fuel efficient per km than directly running an ICE car, but I based it on the advertised efficiency values of a random average seeming diesel car, compared to rather pessimistic charging loss and efficiency numbers for the EV. The inefficiency of even modern ICE cars is quite astonishing, even compared to the engine in a generator that can constantly run at the optimal RPM and load for efficiency.
Citation needed. Do ICE engines not get hot and therefore also have great losses because of waste heat?
Presumably a generator making electricity for a charging station would only run when electricity is needed, while an ICE engine would be losing energy to heat the entire time the vehicle is idling in traffic.
Why would a diesel generator not be made to efficient and why are ICE engines always made to be efficient? How do you know which kind of generator they were using? Why would they use the generator for 100% of the energy needed?
Keeping in mind that this is a hypothetical scenario and that I did point out that the overall efficiency is dependent on how much of the power is generated by renewables and how much by the on-site diesel generator:
It doesn’t really matter actually. Electric motors are so much better at delivering power, that you will get more range from a gallon of gas by towing an ‘flat battery’ EV behind a truck and then driving the EV than you will just driving the truck without towing the EV.
Doesn’t that highlight the torque that is available and delivered, more than efficiency of the electric motors, charging, heat losses, etc.?
There has to be a better example to prove your point than this.
Nope.
Yes it gets also hot, but the battery as well, during charging and using.
To clarify, ICE produce so much waste heat that defrosting and heating your car is essentially free (energetically speaking) because the car needed to dump that excess heat anyway.
BEVs don’t even generate enough waste heat to maintain the battery temp, and frequently rely on heaters to maintain battery and cabin temperature.
So saying BEVs create waste heat too is technically true, but it seriously undersells the scale of difference between the BEV and the ICE.
We would just put diesel generators in the trunk if any of that would make sense.
No, an electric car powered by a Diesel generator is definitively not more effective than a combustion car.
The thought doesnt even make sense, since a Diesel generator is a combustion engine.
We actually do. The BMW i3 came with a gas generator as an optional range extender feature. It was not very popular. The majority of drivers drive less than 40 miles a day, and EVs easily encompass that distance, even if you have to run the heat.
And yes, an electric vehicle powered by a combustion motor absolutely is better in terms of efficiency down to extremely small scales. We’ve been using diesel electric vehicles for decades now because of their efficiency, torque, and long service life. They’re called ‘trains’.
Holy smokes, is this bizarro world?
Youre arguing against the principle of physics.
What makes a Diesel generator better then … Checks notes… a Diesel Generator?
By your logic it becomes better when it’s used to charge a battery first.
We’ve had those for freight trains for decades now. That is also the model for many hybrid vehicles. They are well proven to be more efficient. Also, they don’t need to use the trunk, there’s a perfectly good space available where the less efficient engine used to be.
We’re talking about charging EVs with diesel generators, which is indeed not as effective as a diesel vehicle.
Even the hybrid trains dont power the electric motor with their diesel Motor. The electric Motor uses excess heat and break energy to get powered.
Not to mention the electrical energy stored in their cells has a fairly strong possibility of having been generated by a power plant consuming coal or petroleum.
Even when powered by fossil fuel power plants, electric vehicles are still usually better in terms of CO2 emissions. Power plants benefit from scale, so they’re a lot more efficient than the tiny combustion engines in cars. Regenerative braking also saves a ton of energy when driving in the city.
The thing is, that EVs, and Tesla/Musk in particular are trying to continue a war against public transport that the car industry has been fighting for 100+ years at this point. Using the same power sources, an electric train is orders of magnitude more efficient than an EV, and even a diesel train is emitting less CO2. Hell, a diesel bus is probably still emitting less.
Edit: per person/passenger.
Of course, public transit is far better. Unfortunately it’s often easier (especially in the US) to convince people to buy a different kind of car than it is to convince them to use public transit.
Yeah definitely, but EVs are being pushed globally as a solution to climate change when they just aren’t really.
I live in Alberta where most of our power comes from natural gas. I’m also an emissions and sustainability engineer. I did the math on environmental payback for an EV where I live and the EV is WILDLY better for the environment despite the power potentially coming from fossil fuels.
If you tell me roughly where you live I can calculate emissions per kilometre/mile including the energy that goes into manufacturing the vehicle.
There’s absolutely jurisdictions where EVs don’t make much difference - but most places they do.
(large scale power generation is pretty effecient and most jurisdictions have some renewables in the mix. A car’s gas engine is much lower efficiency most places)
No disputes from me on your assessment. In principle I’m a big fan of EVs as a maturing technology and my only hangup with Tesla is its association with the person who is its CEO and the role he’s chosen to play in US politics.
I’ll gladly champion a vehicle that has incredible efficiency in converting its stored energy into mechanical work, especially when that stored energy came from a source that’s 40-60% thermally efficient (for combustion-based processes) or derived from solar/wind/geothermal/hydro sources and can be partially recuperated via braking. It’s too bad there aren’t more EV options for people who want or need a 3/4 or 1-ton pickup (of which I happen to be a big fan for hauling/towing/plowing).
The one area where I’m still dubious of electric vehicles is in cold climates, although I think I’ve read heat pumps are being used with success. Otherwise, I’d propose a small auxiliary tank (preferably propane, if infrastructure permits) and a “Chinese diesel heater”-type unit be installed simply for cabin heating/defogging. Few energy conversions make me cringe more than that of high-exergy electricity (derived from non-renewables) directly into thermal energy, convenient as it may be for the end user.
Of course, it’d be nice if that combustive heat could be generated from sustainably-harvested hydrogen instead of an extracted hydrocarbon, but at that point, a fuel cell running a heat pump would be even better, with resistive waste heat from the FC an added bonus. But now it all feels a bit Rube Goldbergian…
Anyway, what’s your take on EV use in climates with harsh winters (such as Canada/Alaska/Montana/Wyoming/Minnesota), especially when long range might be needed?
My partner and I backcountry ski, iceclimb etc. One of the reasons we went with the Ioniq 5 was that we can sleep in the back and use the heat pump to keep us warm.
We recently did a weeklong ski trip with it. We drove from from Golden, BC back to Calgary, AB (250km/150mi) in -16C (3F) and used 70% of a charge. One day on that trip, we were backcountry skiing in similar weather and the car sat outside in that weather for 8 hours. No loss of battery.
One of the unexpected features I really enjoy is that I never pump gas in the cold any more. I programmed my work schedule and the car pre-warms for my commute. I get home, plug the car in, and it’s always ready to go.
Thanks for the great beta! When it finally comes time for me to retire the ol’ 14 y/o flat-4, I’ll keep your advice in mind.
I have a few family members with heat pumps (I’m in Canada) and they work well. They do need to be supplemented for the coldest days, but they have an electric heater integrated into the system for that. Last month was particularly cold (every day was below freezing) and resulted in some very high power bills, but still worked out to be less costly than oil or even wood.
In terms of EVs not working well in the cold… yeah and neither do Diesel engines. Need to plug in a block heater if you want your diesel engine to start on a cold morning. Seems a really easy fix to have something similar for an EV, and since you’re plugging it in anyway, it shouldn’t be a big problem.
EVs are kinda a no-brainer in terms of energy usage. Way cheaper than gas or diesel, only problem is there’s a significant upfront cost at the moment. Once some lithium mines come online and we get some economies of scale going on making the batteries that upfront cost drops too. Other than the battery, an EV is way simpler than an ICE vehicle, and all studies have shown they will last significantly longer than an ICE vehicle. Electric motors aren’t all that complicated, the batteries are getting to be mature tech now, so there’s less that can go wrong with them than with complicated ICE powered vehicle.
Yes the fossil fuel industry loved to point this one out. “Hahaha! We’re so dirty even your clean tech can’t be clean!”