Arguably (and this is just semantics, Iām on your side), queer means to be outside the norm, or rather fighting against the norm. In the past, things were considered queer that are broadly accepted nowadays. In that sense, a very open society without rigid (gender) norms doesnāt have queer people. I know this isnāt the only plausible conception of the term so I donāt really disagree with you.
I understand your point, and thatās kind of the world Iād want to live in, but straight cis allo monogamous people will probably always be the majority, and so I think it may always take some level of vigilance to keep queer folks from being marginalized.
In most of the world that doesnāt require asking pronouns, though.
Hell, my wife gets confused over them because her native language doesnāt have gendered ones. Weāre both enby, the only thing that bothers us is wierdos thinking weāre in the āwrongā toilet
Yes, and the person you replied to said that it doesnāt happen there ā¦ if something is absent it doesnāt necessarily make it worse, it just means itās handled in a different way.
Like where I live - most people use feminine words for me simply because thatās the toilet I use most of the time. If I wanted to correct them I could do so gently without making a big deal of it
From my point of view (namely an enby from outside of the US) it does look like that ā¦ mostly because it should be a non-issue, yet people who would prefer gender-neutral terms spend a lot of time fussing over it
What a coincidence. Until yesterday I had never heard of that movie. My boss and I were talking about Memento which led to Guy Pierce. My boss then showed me the trailer for Princess. I immediately saw a similarity to the movie āTo Wong fu thanks for everythingā¦ā and we watched that trailer too.
Now the next day I come across a mention of Princess in the wild.
something tells me you and your social circle isnāt reflective of the queer people living in Australia. may be the fact that you consider respecting people to be āculture war crapā. grow up
I donāt ever ask someoneās pronouns, but Iām part of a community that happens to attract a fair few enbies and trans people. Without explicitly asking, I and my fellow longer-term members of the community make a very careful effort to get peopleās pronouns right. Usually I make a judgment call based on how they present, and if Iām unsure Iāll use ātheyā until/unless corrected.
I think the important thing to remember is that the āculture warā we see exported from America is not people asking for or trying to use othersā preferred pronouns. The culture war is the idea that doing the aforementioned (which is really just one specific example of ātreat others with kindnessāā¦itās not a big deal) is something to get angry about or to specifically avoid doing to make a political point. In other words, the culture war is not created by the left or by trans or gender nonconforming people; itās a war invented by the bigoted right.
I try to use gender neutral language in general until I know better. I will use they/them by default, and use collective words like āfolksā that donāt indicate gender. This only ever pisses off bigots.
āpartnerā is such a perfect term too. It means exactly what the person is whether youāve been too broke to marry, have strong opinions about marriage, canāt marry, been married for decades, will get married at some point, donāt feel like going through the hassle of marriage, arenāt ready to marry etc. about the only time āpartnerā doesnāt fit is when it isnāt a committed relationship or stuff is completely on the rocks/falling apart
Like, I adore my wife and family and thereās something special about specifically getting yo call your partner your wife/husband, so Iāll use primarily gendered language for my household, but everyone else Iāll generally default to gender neutral language (and āpartnerā for folks partners because I dont know everyoneās marriage/relationship status) and nobody seems to even notice (itās almost like pronouns are just part of the English language and not inherently political!)
I recently met a group of people who are close friends with my close friend, and the majority of them did not identify with the pronouns Iām accustomed to assigning based on sight/presentation. And it was challenging to give the level of respect I wanted to, because habits are strong.
Iāve met transpeople numerous times in the past, but they all identified one way or another, so that was pretty easy to respect. NB/agender is MUCH harder to get used to. So I think thats going to be my new holy grail; treat everyone as a default human until they tell me they prefer something else.
Yeah, in my experience most people accept that you simply try.
Iām in my 30s, I grew up in a small town where people were just not exposed to things. I wonāt be perfect by default, but I promise Iāll try my best to use your pronouns.
I think the idea of people raging about it is a right wing straw man ā or just purposeful harassing someone until they get mad that youāre obviously trying to harass them.
Iām guessing based on your instance that youāre also Australian and at least part of your experience matches mine.
There are trans and queer folk in my social circles and I was introduced to them. No need for anyone to ask in that scenario is there?
Otherwise how someone presents is enough. A correction wonāt kill anyone if I ever get it wrong.
The culture war has two sides as all wars do. It has the bigots and unfortunately people who get real upset when you wonāt āsay the lineā.
No one asked, no one sought clarity, surely our culture must mirrors theirs! Not having people asking pronouns must be because Iām Nazi and not because everyone Iāve ever met used common sense on the topic.
Just attack a viewpoint immediately because āthe lineā wasnāt uttered. It is a culture war and I want nothing to do with it because itās very un-Australian.
Anyone can be a mate, so the American culture crap can fuck right off.
I think a lot of the culture war outrage is made up straw manning.
Iāve never met a non binary or trans person in real life who actually gets mad if you make a pronoun mistake, as long as you correct and try to do better.
Itās less a culture war as it is a bunch of assholes harassing gay/non binary/trans people for their own amusement. Then there are a few rare and incredibly trollish chronically online culture warriors in the left who donāt really represent reality at all.
Well, sure. But there are two sides to the Israel-Palestine war, or Russia-Ukraine. But in both cases, itās one side choosing for the war to happen, and the other side defending its own right to exist against hostile imperialism and aggression. Two sides existing doesnāt mean two sides both share the blame.
I have no desire to bring any foreign wars to our shores. Nor should you.
Depends on what you mean. If you mean literally, then yeah, duh.
If you mean bringing it up in Australia, wellā¦we live in a global world. Itās important that we push our government to do the right thing. That means, at a bare minimum, not selling weapons directly to assist in wars of aggression and genocides overseas, and not inviting heads of state of genocidal regimes to be guests in our country. It also probably means sanctioning the countries responsible, or at least minimising trade with them where possible.
It certainly means not proactively speaking out as the first leader in the entire world to congratulate the genocidal regime and its closest fascist ally on their decision to invade yet another country. Realpolitik might be a thing thatās worth doing at times. But that could at the very least take the form of silence in such a situation, rather than active condemnation. Speaking out proactively in support of it is something every Australian should be ashamed of.
Pro Palestine protestors are not the people ābringing foreign wars to our shoresā. The government did that a long time ago.
Not a lecture about Palestine. A lecture about our government, and why people who are opposed to the protests because of bullshit like ātheyāre bringing foreign wars to our shoresā are dipshits who at best just have no fucking clue what theyāre talking about. At worst, theyāre actively defending genocide. Either way, absolute deadshits.
Thatās not you, I hope. Because up until now I had thought we were having a fairly cordial conversation. But that responseā¦well, it doesnāt reflect well on you.
Removed by mod
Queer people exist in every culture and have since before human society existed.
The least you can do is be nice to them when you encounter them.
Arguably (and this is just semantics, Iām on your side), queer means to be outside the norm, or rather fighting against the norm. In the past, things were considered queer that are broadly accepted nowadays. In that sense, a very open society without rigid (gender) norms doesnāt have queer people. I know this isnāt the only plausible conception of the term so I donāt really disagree with you.
I understand your point, and thatās kind of the world Iād want to live in, but straight cis allo monogamous people will probably always be the majority, and so I think it may always take some level of vigilance to keep queer folks from being marginalized.
In most of the world that doesnāt require asking pronouns, though.
Hell, my wife gets confused over them because her native language doesnāt have gendered ones. Weāre both enby, the only thing that bothers us is wierdos thinking weāre in the āwrongā toilet
In a good chunk of the world, yes. But Australia is an english-speaking country, so - last I checked - it still uses gendered pronouns.
Yes, and the person you replied to said that it doesnāt happen there ā¦ if something is absent it doesnāt necessarily make it worse, it just means itās handled in a different way.
Like where I live - most people use feminine words for me simply because thatās the toilet I use most of the time. If I wanted to correct them I could do so gently without making a big deal of it
deleted by creator
Fair point, though I get annoyed sometimes by both sides of the US culture wars so I read it from that standpoint
deleted by creator
From my point of view (namely an enby from outside of the US) it does look like that ā¦ mostly because it should be a non-issue, yet people who would prefer gender-neutral terms spend a lot of time fussing over it
Removed by mod
Oh look, the cis person found a way to be dismissive of trans people.
What a shocker
Priscilla, Queen of the Desert was a documentary you fucking bigot
What a coincidence. Until yesterday I had never heard of that movie. My boss and I were talking about Memento which led to Guy Pierce. My boss then showed me the trailer for Princess. I immediately saw a similarity to the movie āTo Wong fu thanks for everythingā¦ā and we watched that trailer too.
Now the next day I come across a mention of Princess in the wild.
Wacky fun.
you donāt care or ask lol.
something tells me you and your social circle isnāt reflective of the queer people living in Australia. may be the fact that you consider respecting people to be āculture war crapā. grow up
I donāt ever ask someoneās pronouns, but Iām part of a community that happens to attract a fair few enbies and trans people. Without explicitly asking, I and my fellow longer-term members of the community make a very careful effort to get peopleās pronouns right. Usually I make a judgment call based on how they present, and if Iām unsure Iāll use ātheyā until/unless corrected.
I think the important thing to remember is that the āculture warā we see exported from America is not people asking for or trying to use othersā preferred pronouns. The culture war is the idea that doing the aforementioned (which is really just one specific example of ātreat others with kindnessāā¦itās not a big deal) is something to get angry about or to specifically avoid doing to make a political point. In other words, the culture war is not created by the left or by trans or gender nonconforming people; itās a war invented by the bigoted right.
I try to use gender neutral language in general until I know better. I will use they/them by default, and use collective words like āfolksā that donāt indicate gender. This only ever pisses off bigots.
I call my spouse my partner for similar reasons.
If it helps normalize it then at least Iām doing something incredibly small to help people who might face discrimination.
āpartnerā is such a perfect term too. It means exactly what the person is whether youāve been too broke to marry, have strong opinions about marriage, canāt marry, been married for decades, will get married at some point, donāt feel like going through the hassle of marriage, arenāt ready to marry etc. about the only time āpartnerā doesnāt fit is when it isnāt a committed relationship or stuff is completely on the rocks/falling apart
Like, I adore my wife and family and thereās something special about specifically getting yo call your partner your wife/husband, so Iāll use primarily gendered language for my household, but everyone else Iāll generally default to gender neutral language (and āpartnerā for folks partners because I dont know everyoneās marriage/relationship status) and nobody seems to even notice (itās almost like pronouns are just part of the English language and not inherently political!)
Thatās how I feel too.
When I know people/they know her sheās my wife, but for strangers/coworkers/acquaintances I use partner.
It would feel bizarre talking about her to people who know her and not use her pronouns. But if I donāt have to share that I donāt.
I think I might start trying to do this.
I recently met a group of people who are close friends with my close friend, and the majority of them did not identify with the pronouns Iām accustomed to assigning based on sight/presentation. And it was challenging to give the level of respect I wanted to, because habits are strong.
Iāve met transpeople numerous times in the past, but they all identified one way or another, so that was pretty easy to respect. NB/agender is MUCH harder to get used to. So I think thats going to be my new holy grail; treat everyone as a default human until they tell me they prefer something else.
Yeah, in my experience most people accept that you simply try.
Iām in my 30s, I grew up in a small town where people were just not exposed to things. I wonāt be perfect by default, but I promise Iāll try my best to use your pronouns.
I think the idea of people raging about it is a right wing straw man ā or just purposeful harassing someone until they get mad that youāre obviously trying to harass them.
Iām guessing based on your instance that youāre also Australian and at least part of your experience matches mine.
There are trans and queer folk in my social circles and I was introduced to them. No need for anyone to ask in that scenario is there?
Otherwise how someone presents is enough. A correction wonāt kill anyone if I ever get it wrong.
The culture war has two sides as all wars do. It has the bigots and unfortunately people who get real upset when you wonāt āsay the lineā.
No one asked, no one sought clarity, surely our culture must mirrors theirs! Not having people asking pronouns must be because Iām Nazi and not because everyone Iāve ever met used common sense on the topic.
Just attack a viewpoint immediately because āthe lineā wasnāt uttered. It is a culture war and I want nothing to do with it because itās very un-Australian.
Anyone can be a mate, so the American culture crap can fuck right off.
I think a lot of the culture war outrage is made up straw manning.
Iāve never met a non binary or trans person in real life who actually gets mad if you make a pronoun mistake, as long as you correct and try to do better.
Itās less a culture war as it is a bunch of assholes harassing gay/non binary/trans people for their own amusement. Then there are a few rare and incredibly trollish chronically online culture warriors in the left who donāt really represent reality at all.
Well, sure. But there are two sides to the Israel-Palestine war, or Russia-Ukraine. But in both cases, itās one side choosing for the war to happen, and the other side defending its own right to exist against hostile imperialism and aggression. Two sides existing doesnāt mean two sides both share the blame.
You said it yourself, we donāt need to ask for pronouns and itās not normal behaviour.
As for the war analogyā¦ I have no desire to bring any foreign wars to our shores. Nor should you.
Depends on what you mean. If you mean literally, then yeah, duh.
If you mean bringing it up in Australia, wellā¦we live in a global world. Itās important that we push our government to do the right thing. That means, at a bare minimum, not selling weapons directly to assist in wars of aggression and genocides overseas, and not inviting heads of state of genocidal regimes to be guests in our country. It also probably means sanctioning the countries responsible, or at least minimising trade with them where possible.
It certainly means not proactively speaking out as the first leader in the entire world to congratulate the genocidal regime and its closest fascist ally on their decision to invade yet another country. Realpolitik might be a thing thatās worth doing at times. But that could at the very least take the form of silence in such a situation, rather than active condemnation. Speaking out proactively in support of it is something every Australian should be ashamed of.
Pro Palestine protestors are not the people ābringing foreign wars to our shoresā. The government did that a long time ago.
Yeah thanks for the unnecessary lecture on Palestine.
Not a lecture about Palestine. A lecture about our government, and why people who are opposed to the protests because of bullshit like ātheyāre bringing foreign wars to our shoresā are dipshits who at best just have no fucking clue what theyāre talking about. At worst, theyāre actively defending genocide. Either way, absolute deadshits.
Thatās not you, I hope. Because up until now I had thought we were having a fairly cordial conversation. But that responseā¦well, it doesnāt reflect well on you.