It is a reasonable, most rational choice for normal people now. You do not need to be a fiery-eyed climate activist any more to swap the energy source.
You didn’t have to be a fiery-eyed climate activist for a long time, just somebody with basic financial literacy, that is able to look at the total cost of ownership of a vehicle.
Are you sure? Because until fairly recently, the price difference would take the average owner about 10 years worth of charging at home to make up for and at the same time, EVs have depreciated faster than contemporary ICE vehicles.
If you got an Audi E-Tron or Porsche Taycan when they came out, you got OBLITERATED on depreciation. If you’re buying them used now, deal of a lifetime (though VAG interiors have sucked for like a decade so you’re still paying a lot of money for touchscreen hell). As long as you have someone that can repair õ the batteries and motors if needed, they were a bit, uh, problematic for the early years. And replacement costs are high. But repairs can be affordable.
You’re trying to give a reference for the average person and then you mention Porsche Taycan, and repairing electrical systems capable of killing a human being…
I mentioned early non-sucky EVs available here in Europe. It was mostly those and Teslas (which suck for their own reasons and I don’t just mean that Musk is a nazi - early Teslas also had REALLY poor quality for their price). Leafs sucked so badly, nobody wanted them after everyone found out how bad they were in the winter. I-Mievs were forced on social workers (as work cars) by the government here and they were barely useable brand new. The latter two models did more to destroy EVs’ reputation in my country than oil industry propaganda ever could.
Then many companies copied Tesla’s approach of “start with the high-end, then work your way down” for EVs. Which means if we want to talk about total cost of ownership over a period of more than 3-4 years, we only really have data on those high end cars… and a couple of turds that gave EVs an undeserved bad name.
As for the repairing electrical systems capable of killing a human being, I did mention that you should find someone who can do it. Definitely wouldn’t do it myself and I normally do all my own repairs on my cars. It’s essential for owning a cheap old EV, to have such a workshop available somewhere near you. Tesla had drive unit failures, so did Audi… So does the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and all its newer relatives and those started being made in the 2020s! And battery pack replacements are super costly for all of them. It’s a lottery and you’re quite unlikely to lose, but if you do, it’s 5 figures for a new pack. Which is why I said you need to have a shop available to you that can replace individual cells or modules, depending on the design of the pack. For example, early Teslas literally used 18650 cells, same as most e-cigarettes. A single cell costs a few euros, but if it goes wrong, your car won’t work properly. Tesla will only sell you a brand new pack. Same for other manufacturers, though the cells will be different.
We’ve only really had affordable AND good EVs available for about the last 4 or 5 years if not less, is my point. Earlier EVs were either expensive or shit or both, they all depreciated like crazy (even the cheap ones) and many had surprising reliability issues. Which is why you can now get the formerly super expensive ones for next to nothing… But may have to get high voltage repairs done outside of the dealer system at one point, since dealers don’t repair, they replace.
In fact the early 2020s midrange priced EVs (Ioniq 5, Enyaq) have also depreciated a fair bit, despite the fact that most of the ones for sale are under 100k km and still in battery warranty.
For midrange depreciation example: Cheapest Ioniq 5 in Estonia, 29900, under 100k km. There was a 2022 for much cheaper, but it was an outlier because it had nearly 300k km on it. Cheapest diesel Sorento, 31490, 137k km. Those had a very similar price new, but the Sorento has been driven a fair bit more for the money.
So the depreciation difference is less noticeable on the cheaper, newer models. But that was my entire point: It’s NOW cheaper to own an EV, but it wasn’t always. That E-Tron didn’t just dump its value like a tank because it’s a luxury car (or, well, sold as one; I disagree). It’s actually significantly less technologically advanced than the Ioniq 5. Charges way slower, gets 300km for a full battery because it’s both heavy AND inefficient, etc.
If you go out and buy a new EV today and it isn’t a 6 year old model that hasn’t been updated, you can be pretty sure it’ll keep its value okay. If you did it 8 years ago, it dropped like a tank and that really hurts the total cost of ownership.
The E-Tron, EQC and Taycan were among the first non-Tesla EVs widely available in Europe that weren’t utter shit like the Leaf and I-Miev. The original Ioniq (without a number) was also quite shit, it barely had a battery. There are plugin hybrids with similar size batteries out there. The Kona EV and its Niro sister were about the only cheap EVs that didn’t absolutely suck, but these were also more expensive than their ICE counterparts and I have a hard time figuring out the actual depreciation because there are very few used ones for sale here outside of super low mileage ones at dealers. Despite the lower price, they seem to have sold much worse here than the luxury EVs. Basically 6-8 years ago if you were buying an EV, you probably weren’t looking for the cheapest possible option because if you were, you would’ve just stayed with an ICE vehicle and probably buying used anyway.
If we’re talking about total cost of ownership for EVs over their lifetimes and saying that EVs were cheaper to run than ICE vehicles for “a long time” already, those are the cars we have data on. Once we get into the 2020s, there are lower priced options that don’t suck, and their depreciation curve isn’t as bad. And honestly, the Ioniq 5 is probably a better car to own than the e-tron or i-pace. Which is why I’m saying that any of the early options that didn’t suck, depreciated so much it was hard to justify them economically compared to ICE vehicles.
Hmm, fair. And oops, I forgot since I basically drive my Prime like an EV, haha (almost exclusively short distances; filled up twice this year).
I was thinking of the Ioniq next… But I do have high hopes for the Hyundai Casper… Haven’t heard much about it, though. Anyway, I feel like a lot of the price depreciation is due to the industry’s age. Their insurance also costs more because parts are rarer, but as they proliferate, that should even out.
I would love to drive an EV, but the price premium for it buys a lot of gas. I also detest cloud-depending computers on wheels, and the charging infrastructure is a bit thin.
Unless your job involves driving >100km DAILY, current EVs are perfectly fine at achieving that with just in home charging without any fancy installations.
This is what people often ignore, usually only new vehicles are compared. You can get 1600 km on a tank of diesel in a 2000 euro car and refuelling is quick anyway. Cheap used EVs have not gotten there yet.
A lot of people can start driving EVs when a used EV is cheap AND gets you proper range. I don’t mean comparable to diesel, but like 400 km of range in a vehicle at 5k EUR and I reckon nearly everyone driving used cars will start looking at used EVs.
It is a reasonable, most rational choice for normal people now. You do not need to be a fiery-eyed climate activist any more to swap the energy source.
I am thinking in this one:
https://xkcd.com/3226/
You didn’t have to be a fiery-eyed climate activist for a long time, just somebody with basic financial literacy, that is able to look at the total cost of ownership of a vehicle.
Are you sure? Because until fairly recently, the price difference would take the average owner about 10 years worth of charging at home to make up for and at the same time, EVs have depreciated faster than contemporary ICE vehicles.
If you got an Audi E-Tron or Porsche Taycan when they came out, you got OBLITERATED on depreciation. If you’re buying them used now, deal of a lifetime (though VAG interiors have sucked for like a decade so you’re still paying a lot of money for touchscreen hell). As long as you have someone that can repair õ the batteries and motors if needed, they were a bit, uh, problematic for the early years. And replacement costs are high. But repairs can be affordable.
You’re trying to give a reference for the average person and then you mention Porsche Taycan, and repairing electrical systems capable of killing a human being…
I mentioned early non-sucky EVs available here in Europe. It was mostly those and Teslas (which suck for their own reasons and I don’t just mean that Musk is a nazi - early Teslas also had REALLY poor quality for their price). Leafs sucked so badly, nobody wanted them after everyone found out how bad they were in the winter. I-Mievs were forced on social workers (as work cars) by the government here and they were barely useable brand new. The latter two models did more to destroy EVs’ reputation in my country than oil industry propaganda ever could.
Then many companies copied Tesla’s approach of “start with the high-end, then work your way down” for EVs. Which means if we want to talk about total cost of ownership over a period of more than 3-4 years, we only really have data on those high end cars… and a couple of turds that gave EVs an undeserved bad name.
As for the repairing electrical systems capable of killing a human being, I did mention that you should find someone who can do it. Definitely wouldn’t do it myself and I normally do all my own repairs on my cars. It’s essential for owning a cheap old EV, to have such a workshop available somewhere near you. Tesla had drive unit failures, so did Audi… So does the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and all its newer relatives and those started being made in the 2020s! And battery pack replacements are super costly for all of them. It’s a lottery and you’re quite unlikely to lose, but if you do, it’s 5 figures for a new pack. Which is why I said you need to have a shop available to you that can replace individual cells or modules, depending on the design of the pack. For example, early Teslas literally used 18650 cells, same as most e-cigarettes. A single cell costs a few euros, but if it goes wrong, your car won’t work properly. Tesla will only sell you a brand new pack. Same for other manufacturers, though the cells will be different.
We’ve only really had affordable AND good EVs available for about the last 4 or 5 years if not less, is my point. Earlier EVs were either expensive or shit or both, they all depreciated like crazy (even the cheap ones) and many had surprising reliability issues. Which is why you can now get the formerly super expensive ones for next to nothing… But may have to get high voltage repairs done outside of the dealer system at one point, since dealers don’t repair, they replace.
In fact the early 2020s midrange priced EVs (Ioniq 5, Enyaq) have also depreciated a fair bit, despite the fact that most of the ones for sale are under 100k km and still in battery warranty.
For high-end depreciation example: Cheapest 2020 Q7 in Estonia, 39900 EUR, 175k km. Cheapest 2021 E-tron in Estonia, 24500 EUR, 169k km. The Q7 would’ve been about 80k new, the E-Tron about 100k.
For midrange depreciation example: Cheapest Ioniq 5 in Estonia, 29900, under 100k km. There was a 2022 for much cheaper, but it was an outlier because it had nearly 300k km on it. Cheapest diesel Sorento, 31490, 137k km. Those had a very similar price new, but the Sorento has been driven a fair bit more for the money.
So the depreciation difference is less noticeable on the cheaper, newer models. But that was my entire point: It’s NOW cheaper to own an EV, but it wasn’t always. That E-Tron didn’t just dump its value like a tank because it’s a luxury car (or, well, sold as one; I disagree). It’s actually significantly less technologically advanced than the Ioniq 5. Charges way slower, gets 300km for a full battery because it’s both heavy AND inefficient, etc.
If you go out and buy a new EV today and it isn’t a 6 year old model that hasn’t been updated, you can be pretty sure it’ll keep its value okay. If you did it 8 years ago, it dropped like a tank and that really hurts the total cost of ownership.
Um, shouldn’t you be talking about Priuses and cars accessible to normal people? Way to scapegoat!
A Prius is not an EV, it’s a hybrid.
The E-Tron, EQC and Taycan were among the first non-Tesla EVs widely available in Europe that weren’t utter shit like the Leaf and I-Miev. The original Ioniq (without a number) was also quite shit, it barely had a battery. There are plugin hybrids with similar size batteries out there. The Kona EV and its Niro sister were about the only cheap EVs that didn’t absolutely suck, but these were also more expensive than their ICE counterparts and I have a hard time figuring out the actual depreciation because there are very few used ones for sale here outside of super low mileage ones at dealers. Despite the lower price, they seem to have sold much worse here than the luxury EVs. Basically 6-8 years ago if you were buying an EV, you probably weren’t looking for the cheapest possible option because if you were, you would’ve just stayed with an ICE vehicle and probably buying used anyway.
If we’re talking about total cost of ownership for EVs over their lifetimes and saying that EVs were cheaper to run than ICE vehicles for “a long time” already, those are the cars we have data on. Once we get into the 2020s, there are lower priced options that don’t suck, and their depreciation curve isn’t as bad. And honestly, the Ioniq 5 is probably a better car to own than the e-tron or i-pace. Which is why I’m saying that any of the early options that didn’t suck, depreciated so much it was hard to justify them economically compared to ICE vehicles.
Hmm, fair. And oops, I forgot since I basically drive my Prime like an EV, haha (almost exclusively short distances; filled up twice this year).
I was thinking of the Ioniq next… But I do have high hopes for the Hyundai Casper… Haven’t heard much about it, though. Anyway, I feel like a lot of the price depreciation is due to the industry’s age. Their insurance also costs more because parts are rarer, but as they proliferate, that should even out.
I would love to drive an EV, but the price premium for it buys a lot of gas. I also detest cloud-depending computers on wheels, and the charging infrastructure is a bit thin.
I wish I could afford one that has the range I need to get to work and back
Unless your job involves driving >100km DAILY, current EVs are perfectly fine at achieving that with just in home charging without any fancy installations.
I drive about 145km every day I go into work. The EVs I see $5000 or less can barely get me to work if even that.
This is what people often ignore, usually only new vehicles are compared. You can get 1600 km on a tank of diesel in a 2000 euro car and refuelling is quick anyway. Cheap used EVs have not gotten there yet.
A lot of people can start driving EVs when a used EV is cheap AND gets you proper range. I don’t mean comparable to diesel, but like 400 km of range in a vehicle at 5k EUR and I reckon nearly everyone driving used cars will start looking at used EVs.
https://xkcd.com/3214/
Yes, the higher range ones are quite expensive. Hopefully the second hand market will have a few reasonably priced in a few years.
If you can charge at work you might only have to go a little above that price range to just comfortably get to work. If not tho that’s rough
also one without insane data tracking
I agree it’s not a rational choice but, as a human, I do not always make rational decisions.
I’ll be able to get so many cool cars that make fart noises!