Don’t like the implication that european nations are just hapless little fishies hounded by predator. This is a large geopolitical war between economic blocs. The Europeans have agency and actively pushed boundaries as well. They aren’t victims of a mindless aggressor attacking them out of pure instinct. Both sides of this conflict have distinct political-economic motives that led to this war. Nation’s are rational actors.
Curious how you’d break that down, other than Putin and monied right-wing sources tampering with major, global elections, as we’ve abundantly seen as on ongoing process, non?
I said Europe for a reason but Canada is part of NATO no? NATO is effectively the economic bloc I am referring to here so increasing tensions with Russia at least happened with Canada’s acceptance. Regardless Canada is not genuinely threatened by Russia and their support for the war in Ukraine is primarily along geopolitical lines. As a rule Nation’s do not act out of sympathy for oppressed people, look at palestine for example, so it can’t truly be argued that Canada supports Ukraine out of moral concern.
Sort of, NATO was practicing an method of economic and physical encirclement intended to suffocate the Russian economy. I don’t personally think this was feasible but Russia has for about 2 decades and made their stance clear on this matter. If NATO continued on this path it would lead to war. Russia has stated this repeatedly and high ranking members of NATO have as well. Everyone involved knew this but to NATO’s credit, they pushed those boundaries for a very long time and Russia never actually did anything about it. Mostly because it was not economically or militarily feasible.
Ukraine was the final red line though. Sure, morally speaking, one nation should not be able to limit the treaties another nation decides to make or coalitions they try to join but geopolitics is not governed by morality. It was stupid to believe that Russia would just accept Ukraine’s entrance into NATO which is why no one in power genuinely believed this. Russia was not going to accept an alliance that allowed for a military buildup so close to their key infrastructure and ballistic missiles within a few minutes of Moscow. Russia fully understands that NATO is an imperial organ and necessarily a threat to its existence as a decently sized economy largely independent of it and brimming with natural resources.
Russia didn’t “have to” invade Ukraine but if it didn’t it would effectively look like rolling over to their largest geopolitical enemy and, strictly speaking, put them in a strategically compromised position.
This doesn’t make it morally right or a great thing that I just fucking love but in the world of real politik it is rational. They weren’t forced into this action but were put in a position where not doing it would be strategically untenable in the long term. The Russian ruling class is simply protecting their economic interests.
You don’t have to be Russia’s number one fan to understand this conflict as more complex than the western propaganda narrative that Russia is just an evil imperialist taking Ukraine because it wants to.
Sort of, NATO was practicing an method of economic and physical encirclement intended to suffocate the Russian economy.
What the fuck are you even talking about? EU trade with Russia was at an all time high at the start of 2022.
It was stupid to believe that Russia would just accept Ukraine’s entrance into NATO
Again, what the fuck are you talking about. Ukraine declared its neutral status in 2010and again in 2014, stating that they were not seeking NATO membership. That position only changed after the annexation of Crimea.
Stop writing walls of nonsense on shit you clearly have no idea about.
I’m tired and had a bit to drink so I won’t be super in depth here and I apologize for that but I will explain my reasoning as simply as possible.
The 2022 and previous state of NATO member nations economic relationship with Russia was one of opportunism and convenience that does not reflect their long term strategic goals in the region.
Ukraine declared neutrality on the matter because it knew joining NATO would lead to it being invaded. This changed after the highly western backed and financed Maiden “revolution”. This occured concurrently with the Russian invasion of Crimea and it is arguable that both influenced each other in turn. Russia recognized the changing political tides towards western powers in Ukraine and responded to it while Ukrainian nationalism swelled in response to Russian invasion.
None of these events were beneficial to the working people of Ukraine.
Edit: you can disagree with my reasoning here and I’d kinda understand, I don’t expect to convince you, but at least I am consistent.
NATO is not an economic block. NATO does not trade or have anything to do with international trade deals. It is a defence pact just as the Warsaw pact was. Russia was free to trade with whoever they wanted to after the fall of the USSR. What changed after that?
I used NATO as a shorthand for the economic bloc the countries within it make up and I apologize for any confusion that caused. NATO members are and have been for some time highly economically intertwined and aligned on geostrategic goals. They tend to sanction nations that threaten the economic order they benefit from in order to preserve that system as a group. They often, though not necessarily through the organ of NATO, invade the same nations as a coalition for the same reason. NATO is not the economic organ but its members are part of an economic organ.
This is a battle between the authoritarian countries and democratic countries of the world. If you can set aside the vaguely racist tankie paradigm for just five minutes and think about which countries are democracies and which are not, you might be able to understand the world a little better.
I wish I were paid to talk about this shit. I do it because seeing people reduce international conflicts to simplified narratives like “country bad” or “leader evil” is infuriating. Nations are complex political organs governed by their current base material conditions that have developed over the course of their history, the state of their internal class conflict, and the resulting overarching ideology created by these factors. They are not controlled by the whims of an individual but rather the economic interests of their ruling class.
Russia is not controlled by Vladimir Putin
China is not controlled by Xi Jinping
The US is not controlled by Donald Trump
Israel is not controlled by Benjamin Netanyahu
Geopolitics is not a story played out by great actors. It is a web of evolving dialectical relationships expressed through the actions of individuals and rooted in the contradictory material interests of economic classes.
You’re exactly right! Blaming this all on putin is silly. Everyone with a bit of history knowledge knows that Russia’s always been an imperialist country. Before the invasion of Ukraine there was the annexation of Crimea. Before that it was Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya, all the neocolonialism in Africa. Before that…well…you don’t become the largest country in the world by sitting on your ass… they’ve been doing this constantly since the 16th century or so.
Yeah… “Read the communist literature” is like their mantra but it must be like the bible for most Christians because it’s really not reflected in their actions.
I see this claim against Marxist-Leninists frequently, but never anything backing it up. First of all, Marxists don’t read theorists like evangelicals read the Bible. We see theory as a guide to adapt to our own conditions, not gospel to worship. Lenin saying Russia needs a newspaper for agitating among the masses does not mean we need literal physical newspapers today (sorry Trots).
I think the broader phenomena is that the Marx non-Marxists know is not the same as the Marxism actually studied and practiced. There is a “liberal Marx,” one that people maybe associate with revolutionary socialism, but not one people care to understand the anti-imperialist and anti-colonial aspects of Marxism that were expanded by Lenin.
I mean, those are all countries from which they have stolen land in the last 30 years. Add to that the proven interference in Moldavian, Romanian, American and French politics and probably others that I don’t know about. Kazahstan, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Japan have land disputes with them… yes, discount all of that by calling me a racist. xD
Are you simple-minded? Do you struggle to read? Which of these is the correct answer to the question of “how can you manage to think I said Russia does not interfere in elections?”
I think you are a run-of-the-mill western chauvinist, inundated by the racist propaganda that floats around on mainstream media. I think this because of your childish, simplistic reasoning for the actions of Russia and your sad attempt at a historical analysis with a conclusion so reductive it would make Franz Halder ask you to take the russians more seriously.
One could literally do the same spiel you did for every colonial power. Yet I somehow doubt that you’d make pseudo-intellectual musings about France based on the nations long and proud colonial history or its current-day imperial actions in Mali or control over the financial policy of a dozen foreign nations. For some reason I doubt that you’d reduce the United States bloody history in South America to “Trump bad” or “the American genetics are just made to be evil, just look at their history!”
Somehow I have a feeling you’d cry about nuance if one were to imply that all dastardly things done by the brits are due to their current leader or some inherent quality (and if you dont believe me, just look at their history! They love war! They even sent Boris Johnson to Ukraine to have him talk them out of a peace treaty!)
If these were the countries being discussed, then I have a feeling you wouldnt be so bold with generalising statements based on a lacking historical “analysis”.
The racism is not you pointing to something Russia did. The racism is you acting as if the thing happening is uniquely and inherently Russian
Right, so do the exact same spiel for all the other powers and I’ll agree with you. Because yes, they’re all doing it. But that includes your precious russia and china. I’m sorry…Never said russia’s the only bad guy out there…And most people around here will also agree…but when it comes to russia and china there’s suddenly a bunch of “but what about!” And “LUL libtard!”…
Do you seriously not see the hypocrisy? But yeah, go on, keep insulting me while explaining the continuous imperialistic aggression. Everyone’s hysterical except russia. They’re bombing for freedom, they’re special…NATO made them!!!
I’m the chauvinist for hating all imperialists whereas you only hate the western variety. Maybe read the definition of the words your using before going out and using them against people.
Its still 50/50 which of the two options it is. This response really did nothing to clear it up. Due to the lack of spelling errors, and the fact you completely failed to engage with my argue, I’m going to pick simple-minded. I even took the time to give you a neat little summation at the end, and you still fucked up.
Then again you continue to argue against statements I haven’t made, so thats a count for “can’t read.”
Maybe ask a trusted adult or a chatbot for help with parsing the text so you can actually respond to what I’m saying instead of whatever this is.
If it’s “Putin’s narrative” that wars start for more complex reasons than “some nations are just evil and bad” then I fear he just has a better understanding of how the world works than someone who accepts that premise. Some nations being simply evil and bad is the type of thinking that fascists actively encourage. Do not fall for it. At least attempt to develop an understanding of the real material reasons for international military conflict.
I probably hate the Russian ruling class more than you and for better reasons but that’s no reason to simplify geopolitics to such a degree.
We can discuss why Russia decided to invade Ukraine, but it doesn’t change the fact that they did. They started the war with Ukraine, twice. I’m not sure if it is your intention but your comments do come off as though you’re equating Russia’s actions with the actions of the EU, in terms of explaining why hundreds of thousands of people are dead, which surely is not good. Assigning blame is absolutely a reasonable thing to do when people are violently killed, and in this instance that blame lies with Putin and Russia.
Certainly much of the immediate death is at the hands of the Russian ruling class but to claim this happened in isolation of broader geopolitical forces because Russia just does that is infantile and chauvinistic. This is my issue with the meme. Atlanticist nations are active participants in this war and it is not even their workers dying for it. It is Ukrainian workers dying for Atlanticist goals. Imperialist war is a disgusting awful thing where workers are forced to die for the interests of their oppressors but at least the Russians are dying for Russia. Even if Ukraine miraculously “wins” this war there will not be a free Ukraine. Their rulers owe the west too much. This is a war over ownership of Ukrainian resources and labor power, nothing more.
To claim that Russia is an instinctual aggressor and Atlanticist powers are a benevolent allies of Ukraine is nakedly propagandistic.
Don’t like the implication that european nations are just hapless little fishies hounded by predator. This is a large geopolitical war between economic blocs. The Europeans have agency and actively pushed boundaries as well. They aren’t victims of a mindless aggressor attacking them out of pure instinct. Both sides of this conflict have distinct political-economic motives that led to this war. Nation’s are rational actors.
(Seeing your nickname here) you’re probably just jealous of the US fish ;p
Pssssh… nuh uh
Curious how you’d break that down, other than Putin and monied right-wing sources tampering with major, global elections, as we’ve abundantly seen as on ongoing process, non?
Please name one thing Canada did that forced Russia to invade Ukraine.
I said Europe for a reason but Canada is part of NATO no? NATO is effectively the economic bloc I am referring to here so increasing tensions with Russia at least happened with Canada’s acceptance. Regardless Canada is not genuinely threatened by Russia and their support for the war in Ukraine is primarily along geopolitical lines. As a rule Nation’s do not act out of sympathy for oppressed people, look at palestine for example, so it can’t truly be argued that Canada supports Ukraine out of moral concern.
So Russia had to invade Ukraine because NATO won’t trade with Russia even though they do?
Sort of, NATO was practicing an method of economic and physical encirclement intended to suffocate the Russian economy. I don’t personally think this was feasible but Russia has for about 2 decades and made their stance clear on this matter. If NATO continued on this path it would lead to war. Russia has stated this repeatedly and high ranking members of NATO have as well. Everyone involved knew this but to NATO’s credit, they pushed those boundaries for a very long time and Russia never actually did anything about it. Mostly because it was not economically or militarily feasible.
Ukraine was the final red line though. Sure, morally speaking, one nation should not be able to limit the treaties another nation decides to make or coalitions they try to join but geopolitics is not governed by morality. It was stupid to believe that Russia would just accept Ukraine’s entrance into NATO which is why no one in power genuinely believed this. Russia was not going to accept an alliance that allowed for a military buildup so close to their key infrastructure and ballistic missiles within a few minutes of Moscow. Russia fully understands that NATO is an imperial organ and necessarily a threat to its existence as a decently sized economy largely independent of it and brimming with natural resources.
Russia didn’t “have to” invade Ukraine but if it didn’t it would effectively look like rolling over to their largest geopolitical enemy and, strictly speaking, put them in a strategically compromised position.
This doesn’t make it morally right or a great thing that I just fucking love but in the world of real politik it is rational. They weren’t forced into this action but were put in a position where not doing it would be strategically untenable in the long term. The Russian ruling class is simply protecting their economic interests.
You don’t have to be Russia’s number one fan to understand this conflict as more complex than the western propaganda narrative that Russia is just an evil imperialist taking Ukraine because it wants to.
What the fuck are you even talking about? EU trade with Russia was at an all time high at the start of 2022.
Again, what the fuck are you talking about. Ukraine declared its neutral status in 2010 and again in 2014, stating that they were not seeking NATO membership. That position only changed after the annexation of Crimea.
Stop writing walls of nonsense on shit you clearly have no idea about.
I’m tired and had a bit to drink so I won’t be super in depth here and I apologize for that but I will explain my reasoning as simply as possible.
The 2022 and previous state of NATO member nations economic relationship with Russia was one of opportunism and convenience that does not reflect their long term strategic goals in the region.
Ukraine declared neutrality on the matter because it knew joining NATO would lead to it being invaded. This changed after the highly western backed and financed Maiden “revolution”. This occured concurrently with the Russian invasion of Crimea and it is arguable that both influenced each other in turn. Russia recognized the changing political tides towards western powers in Ukraine and responded to it while Ukrainian nationalism swelled in response to Russian invasion. None of these events were beneficial to the working people of Ukraine.
Edit: you can disagree with my reasoning here and I’d kinda understand, I don’t expect to convince you, but at least I am consistent.
But they said they know the material conditions and stuff, so shut up and let Russia do what they want to civilians.
IIRC, there was no serious talk of Ukraine joining NATO before Russia invaded Crimea
You’re kidding, right?
NATO is not an economic block. NATO does not trade or have anything to do with international trade deals. It is a defence pact just as the Warsaw pact was. Russia was free to trade with whoever they wanted to after the fall of the USSR. What changed after that?
I used NATO as a shorthand for the economic bloc the countries within it make up and I apologize for any confusion that caused. NATO members are and have been for some time highly economically intertwined and aligned on geostrategic goals. They tend to sanction nations that threaten the economic order they benefit from in order to preserve that system as a group. They often, though not necessarily through the organ of NATO, invade the same nations as a coalition for the same reason. NATO is not the economic organ but its members are part of an economic organ.
This is a battle between the authoritarian countries and democratic countries of the world. If you can set aside the vaguely racist tankie paradigm for just five minutes and think about which countries are democracies and which are not, you might be able to understand the world a little better.
Yeah and you shouns very much like a paid Putin shill who “just saying” that other countries are bad too!
Fuck Putin
Fuck pooh bear Xi
Fuck trump
Fuck Netanyahu
But right now, most of all, fuck Russia. Until Russia has a democracy, fuck all about that country
I wish I were paid to talk about this shit. I do it because seeing people reduce international conflicts to simplified narratives like “country bad” or “leader evil” is infuriating. Nations are complex political organs governed by their current base material conditions that have developed over the course of their history, the state of their internal class conflict, and the resulting overarching ideology created by these factors. They are not controlled by the whims of an individual but rather the economic interests of their ruling class.
Russia is not controlled by Vladimir Putin
China is not controlled by Xi Jinping
The US is not controlled by Donald Trump
Israel is not controlled by Benjamin Netanyahu
Geopolitics is not a story played out by great actors. It is a web of evolving dialectical relationships expressed through the actions of individuals and rooted in the contradictory material interests of economic classes.
You’re exactly right! Blaming this all on putin is silly. Everyone with a bit of history knowledge knows that Russia’s always been an imperialist country. Before the invasion of Ukraine there was the annexation of Crimea. Before that it was Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya, all the neocolonialism in Africa. Before that…well…you don’t become the largest country in the world by sitting on your ass… they’ve been doing this constantly since the 16th century or so.
The two forms of liberal analysis. If it’s not Great Man Theory, then it’s declaring a whole people to be inherently evil.
It’s really not that simple either but ok. Whatever man. Country bad
Russia’s been invading countries with Europe for centuries, but somehow now when they do it, it’s actually good.
Russia’s scramble for Africa was good because Marx said so, just don’t look into Marx’s actual writings.
Russia famously the only (and the biggest) participant in the scramble for Africa.
Yeah… “Read the communist literature” is like their mantra but it must be like the bible for most Christians because it’s really not reflected in their actions.
I see this claim against Marxist-Leninists frequently, but never anything backing it up. First of all, Marxists don’t read theorists like evangelicals read the Bible. We see theory as a guide to adapt to our own conditions, not gospel to worship. Lenin saying Russia needs a newspaper for agitating among the masses does not mean we need literal physical newspapers today (sorry Trots).
I think the broader phenomena is that the Marx non-Marxists know is not the same as the Marxism actually studied and practiced. There is a “liberal Marx,” one that people maybe associate with revolutionary socialism, but not one people care to understand the anti-imperialist and anti-colonial aspects of Marxism that were expanded by Lenin.
Removed by mod
I mean, those are all countries from which they have stolen land in the last 30 years. Add to that the proven interference in Moldavian, Romanian, American and French politics and probably others that I don’t know about. Kazahstan, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Japan have land disputes with them… yes, discount all of that by calling me a racist. xD
Are you simple-minded? Do you struggle to read? Which of these is the correct answer to the question of “how can you manage to think I said Russia does not interfere in elections?”
I think you are a run-of-the-mill western chauvinist, inundated by the racist propaganda that floats around on mainstream media. I think this because of your childish, simplistic reasoning for the actions of Russia and your sad attempt at a historical analysis with a conclusion so reductive it would make Franz Halder ask you to take the russians more seriously.
One could literally do the same spiel you did for every colonial power. Yet I somehow doubt that you’d make pseudo-intellectual musings about France based on the nations long and proud colonial history or its current-day imperial actions in Mali or control over the financial policy of a dozen foreign nations. For some reason I doubt that you’d reduce the United States bloody history in South America to “Trump bad” or “the American genetics are just made to be evil, just look at their history!”
Somehow I have a feeling you’d cry about nuance if one were to imply that all dastardly things done by the brits are due to their current leader or some inherent quality (and if you dont believe me, just look at their history! They love war! They even sent Boris Johnson to Ukraine to have him talk them out of a peace treaty!)
If these were the countries being discussed, then I have a feeling you wouldnt be so bold with generalising statements based on a lacking historical “analysis”.
The racism is not you pointing to something Russia did. The racism is you acting as if the thing happening is uniquely and inherently Russian
Right, so do the exact same spiel for all the other powers and I’ll agree with you. Because yes, they’re all doing it. But that includes your precious russia and china. I’m sorry…Never said russia’s the only bad guy out there…And most people around here will also agree…but when it comes to russia and china there’s suddenly a bunch of “but what about!” And “LUL libtard!”…
Do you seriously not see the hypocrisy? But yeah, go on, keep insulting me while explaining the continuous imperialistic aggression. Everyone’s hysterical except russia. They’re bombing for freedom, they’re special…NATO made them!!! I’m the chauvinist for hating all imperialists whereas you only hate the western variety. Maybe read the definition of the words your using before going out and using them against people.
Its still 50/50 which of the two options it is. This response really did nothing to clear it up. Due to the lack of spelling errors, and the fact you completely failed to engage with my argue, I’m going to pick simple-minded. I even took the time to give you a neat little summation at the end, and you still fucked up.
Then again you continue to argue against statements I haven’t made, so thats a count for “can’t read.”
Maybe ask a trusted adult or a chatbot for help with parsing the text so you can actually respond to what I’m saying instead of whatever this is.
Of course the tankie regurgitates Putins narrative.
If it’s “Putin’s narrative” that wars start for more complex reasons than “some nations are just evil and bad” then I fear he just has a better understanding of how the world works than someone who accepts that premise. Some nations being simply evil and bad is the type of thinking that fascists actively encourage. Do not fall for it. At least attempt to develop an understanding of the real material reasons for international military conflict.
I probably hate the Russian ruling class more than you and for better reasons but that’s no reason to simplify geopolitics to such a degree.
We can discuss why Russia decided to invade Ukraine, but it doesn’t change the fact that they did. They started the war with Ukraine, twice. I’m not sure if it is your intention but your comments do come off as though you’re equating Russia’s actions with the actions of the EU, in terms of explaining why hundreds of thousands of people are dead, which surely is not good. Assigning blame is absolutely a reasonable thing to do when people are violently killed, and in this instance that blame lies with Putin and Russia.
Certainly much of the immediate death is at the hands of the Russian ruling class but to claim this happened in isolation of broader geopolitical forces because Russia just does that is infantile and chauvinistic. This is my issue with the meme. Atlanticist nations are active participants in this war and it is not even their workers dying for it. It is Ukrainian workers dying for Atlanticist goals. Imperialist war is a disgusting awful thing where workers are forced to die for the interests of their oppressors but at least the Russians are dying for Russia. Even if Ukraine miraculously “wins” this war there will not be a free Ukraine. Their rulers owe the west too much. This is a war over ownership of Ukrainian resources and labor power, nothing more.
To claim that Russia is an instinctual aggressor and Atlanticist powers are a benevolent allies of Ukraine is nakedly propagandistic.