“In the entire dataset, 29% of men said they never approached a woman in person before. 27% said it had been more than one year. This was larger for men in the age 18-25 group: 45% had never approached a woman in person,” according to the study.
A majority of single males surveyed reported fear as the main reason they do not approach women for dates in person. Fear of rejection and fear of social consequences were the two most common responses.
The data highlights a growing concern in the United States and abroad — loneliness. A 2023 report from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services found that almost half of U.S. adults report “measurable levels of loneliness.”
It’s interesting to say the least. It seems as though the social repercussions and rejection are the most profound reason. While the fear of rejection is easy enough to digest. But I think the fear or social consequences is a relatively new construct.
From what I understand it’s the fear of being viewed as a creep to approach a woman out of the blue. Which to me, is reasonable enough. But I don’t think I have ever heard my old man or anyone of his generation bringing this to the table.
Yet I do remember asking my friends about picking up hints and whether or not men are really that bad at it. And most them saying the just don’t want to risk misinterpreting it.
Perhaps there is an argument to be made that approaching women like this, has fallen out of social fashion. What do you guys think?
p.s. I hope this is casual enough of a conversation. I kinda screwed up my last one, I admit.
Edit: Here is a more detailed paper on the survey for those that are interested
A female friend once said that, at least in the US, men are often viewed by women as being either creepy or not creepy. The not creepy men have learned to avoid women due to the creepy men, so the only men who would approach a woman must be creepy.
Make of that, and its consequences, what you will.
Not creepy, aka attractive/ with money.
Women have been complaining in popular media for decades about random dudes approaching them and asking them out. How is it a surprise that the trend is dying out? It’s clearly something that most women don’t enjoy to begin with.
I think both the “would you rather run into a man or a bear in the woods?” question for women and the “would you rather be emotionally vulnerable with a woman or a tree?” question for men scream loud and clear why there isn’t much meeting in the middle on this issue.
Women are still living in a world that by and large treats women as property and rape as something that women should just get used to.
A woman in the US couldn’t have her own bank account until 1974.
Until 1993, marital rape wasn’t recognized at the Federal level, and only some states had laws against it.
So, up until just thirty-one years ago, raping your wife was cool and legal.
Women are watching politicians try to control their bodily autonomy by making abortion illegal, and the same people pushing that also happen to be pushing for an end to “no fault divorce” because they don’t like women having the choice of divorcing them.
Women have so many good reasons to have had it up to here with men…
Now, women aren’t responsible for men’s emotional well-being and men really should do more to support each other when it comes to being open and emotionally vulnerable, but the downside is that it means men, overall, generally feel like they can’t actually be open with women without it hurting their chances, romantically.
Much like it isn’t every individual black person’s job to educate every idiot white person they come in contact with, it’s not every woman’s job to educate every idiot man they come in contact with.
However, this impacts men who are just trying to find a footing and may grow into better people, given the opportunity. However, the attitude of that you’re not responsible for explaining leads to nobody explaining except… right-wing asshats who are pushing division and hate. So, because there aren’t left-wing men speaking to how to handle these issues and providing healthy in-gender support for other men, we’re leaving it all up to women to do all the educating, and I mean, I get it, they don’t want to, they’re kind of over it, and that’s probably why they’re pretty rude about it, to boot. And since they’re saying no and bowing out, that means young men are left to listen to voices like Andrew Tate.
I think both sides of this coin are doing each other a disservice. Women not having enough patience for men who could grow to be good men, and men not having enough self-reflection to realize that hanging your entire emotional stability on whether or not you are in a relationship is unhealthy, period.
Who would’ve guessed! The “all men are horrible people” narrative is hurting non-horrible (the majority) men.
I feel like this whole conversation is so alienating. You talk to people. You interact with people. Some of them are women. Some of the women you interact with are really cool. Maybe you find them attractive. So you say, “hey I know this is kind of a random encounter, but I’d like to see you again. Is there any chance we could hang out and go see a movie or get dinner or something?”
You aren’t making first contact with an alien species. It’s just people. Someone you’re interested in, who might be interested in you. Don’t bring a whole lot of baggage to the dance, just see if they want to go out. Have something in mind to do.
Maybe that’s how you could spend your off time. Engage in something creative. Go to shows or plays or something that you do regularly that you can invite them along on. Listen to live music at some venue. Take an art class. Book club. Ping pong lessons. Go to a pokémon tournament if that’s your bag. Just something that represents your interests that you can invite them along to, and if they don’t want to come, ask what they want to do.
Perhaps you’re right. Maybe we are dissecting a casual social affair a little too much. But then again I do wonder, what do you make of the 45% statistic?
I think the survey is talking about talking to strangers, which is always difficult. I’ve been a salesman several different times, including car sales, and it’s hard to connect with a stranger. But it isn’t a skill one needs to learn.
What would make you approach a woman you’ve never met or spoken to? It could only be her looks, and she knows that. So instantly you’re shallow, to say the least.
Don’t do that. Just get involved in things that are coed in life; work, church, clubs, theater, classes, you name it. Natural socialization. Be yourself. Have fun doing things, then look around at the people having fun with you. And just talk to them.
Let’s stop idolizing pick-up artists. Because they ARE creepy.
https://datepsychology.com/risk-aversion-and-dating/
I did some digging and according to this. 77% of women 18 - 30 want to be approached more. I don’t know about pick up artists. But I wonder if a respectful way of approaching women could in fact be taught.
Whoa, how is it shallow to be attracted to someone’s looks? What a weird take. We’re not doing married at first sight.
Yeah, there’s something about a person you find attractive and you want to get to know them better.
You’ve found your fun circle and talked them up and down. Now how do I pick one to pursue romantically? Can’t do how attractive I find them because that’s apparently shallow. Do I try a random lottery? Or the order I first met them?
It’s shallow to be attracted to someone ONLY because of their looks. Which is what is happening when you approach a woman you’ve never met because you like her looks.
You have a fun circle… and you are going to “PICK ONE” to get involved romantically with?
My brother, that ain’t how it works.
It’s shallow to stay in a relationship with someone only because of their looks. You can be attracted to any adult for any reason despite what any sanctimonious third-party says. Maybe you are demisexual but you don’t get to prescribe propriety for other people anymore than heterosexuals do.
And, yes, that is how it works in most place when the conversation was and still remains about approaching women romantically. You say “hmm, this one vibes with me the most so I’ll try to date her exclusively”. Unless y’all agree to be polyamorous.
I’ll apologize if you were just throwing in a suggestion about how to just make friends into an unrelated topic.
But I’m losing motivation to continue.
That’s a shit take. If you don’t know the person and don’t have anyone that knows the person, that means you shouldn’t approach them?
It’s perfectly normal to find someone attractive. You can then learn to know the person and both can decide what to do of that relationship.
What is not acceptable is being insistent when the person says no, and breaching boundaries without getting consent.
But I think the fear or social consequences is a relatively new construct.
Rejection and social consequences have absolutely been part of the game, pretty much forever. If I had to wager, what’s different now is that young people spend time online that has replaced irl time, which has “upped the stakes” for irl interactions in their minds. They also just haven’t been as conditioned to being rejected irl and learning to move on.
I say all this as an elder Millennial who employs quite a few 20-somethings, and who has several 20-something nieces/nephews
In the past, rejection ended when the interaction ended.
Now, the person doing the rejection can go home, record a Tiktok about how creeped out they were by this “weirdo creep” who approached them, and now you’re being harassed by half the students in your school.
I think OP might be referring moreso to “social consequences” like this.
We didn’t have to contend with things like say, the guy the girl rejected taking pics of the girl and making a bunch of pornographic deepfakes and spreading them around the school. The fact that it’s fake doesn’t matter, because enough people have seen it and have made judgments already based on it.
The social consequences now are deep, fast, and long-lasting.
In the past, nobody but you and the person who rejected you remember. Now, the nickname that follows you for the rest of your school career is rooted in the embarrassing thing that went viral all over students social media feeds. Now, nobody forgets, and nobody let’s you forget.
Now, the person doing the rejection can go home, record a Tiktok about how creeped out they were by this “weirdo creep” who approached them, and now you’re being harassed by half the students in your school.
That’s the thing though… This doesn’t happen… This is shit people see online and think every interaction is like this. 99% of men / women aren’t psychos that would want to embarrass somone like this for expressing interest.
In fact I’d wager as long as you are nice and respectful they’ll be flattered and you’ll make their day.
Remember the last time somone told you, you are cute, did you A. Go batshit with fear, or B. Feel flattered and good about yourself for the day…
I’ve never approached a woman. Is terrifying and not worth the humiliation.
What’s the worst thing that can happen? That they say no? Because that’s effectively what happens if you don’t even try.
They can use social humiliation, which is way worse than not trying.
“Ugh who the fuck are you, get out of here you fucking weirdo. Why are strange men approaching me? UGH! Get away!”
It hasn’t happened to me but I’ve seen it happen. The guy imo was behaving normally and reasonably. I think the girl just didn’t want to bother. Fucking shameful on the girl’s behalf when she could have politely turned him down.
Ok, but then you can just move on with your life and realize she’s not the one for you…
If you’re just approaching a random girl she probably isn’t going to remember you in a couple weeks unless you are being super fucking creepy, and for sure no one in the general public is going to remember you 15 minutes later
you can just move on with your life
That’s easily said, but if you, for example, struggle with self-image anyway then being ostracized like that can really sting and paralyze. It probably is relatively easy for people who have a lot of self-confidence anyway, but not everybody does, especially in these situations.
This then usually bring up the problem of guys not taking the hint when a woman refuses nicely. It seems to me like the best strategy for a woman who isn’t interested in over-confident/tone-deaf guys is to do the asking herself. Which also comes with lots of potential issues.
Also if it isn’t a random person at a bar you’re talking to but someone you already know a bit then rejection probably also means that any other relationship you might have had is over, maybe even any relationship you had with mutual friends/acquaintances.
What kind of awful, shallow people are you approaching? Pre-screen for people who don’t talk like that, to start with.
Re-read the post
The worst thing that can reasonably happen is she actively makes fun of you to others, especially if she was already your friend or acquaintance. Saying no is usually the BEST case scenario if they’re not interested. Some people are just nasty and enjoy hurting others if it inflates their own ego.
Even in a best-case scenario, people are going to find out you were shot down, which is already pretty humiliating, especially if you share friends.
I personally would never ask someone out in person unless I was already close friends with them and trusted them with that level of power over me.
Its not humiliating to be told no.
I disagree, being romantically rejected is always humiliating unless you’ve somehow reached some Buddha state where the opinions and feelings of others truly don’t matter to you at all. You are directly being told, to your face, by someone you respect and admire, that they don’t like you as much as you like them. That shit hurts!
If her humiliation to you has any worth, that means you are the problem, not her.
There is very little positive guidance, just a sea of don’ts, usually worded as absolutes. And a lot of divisive “gender war” BS from all sides. Really not surprising.
For positive guidance, here’s my approach in bars:
- Casual environment. Preferably full of people, it’s safer for both.
- Good hygiene, and clothes that show self-care. You don’t need to LARP as rich, but don’t pop up with a spaghetti-stained T-shirt either.
- Find some excuse to start a conversation. Plenty of times I’ve approached women outright saying “hey, I’m drinking alone and up to a chat. Are you waiting for someone?” (implied: “is it OK for me to sit with you?”)
- Offer a drink. Make sure that the waiter/waitress brings it, don’t bring it yourself.
- Find some topic that both of you enjoy to chitchat about. Avoid divisive ones.
It works well enough here in Latin America to break the ice.
Important: be assertive but don’t be pushy. It’s fine to show interest, it’s not fine to insist. If you notice that she’s uncomfortable with your presence, just leave. And some people will be only up for the chat, but won’t be willing for anything sexy or romantic, that’s fine too as long as you don’t push boundaries.
PERFECT advice! Much love.
be assertive but don’t be pushy
I think a lot of young men won’t do the former in fear of being judged as the later. Sorry guys, women want assertive men, not twerps. The vast majority of women want a man who can make a decision and execute.
Know the age old meme where a man asks a women where she wants to eat and she hems and haws, can’t decide? Guys! YOU make the decision and present it to her. Hopefully you learned something about what she likes. Maybe you know a place she’s never been to? (That’s a great choice!)
“Dinner tonight? We’ll go to La Hacienda. Ever been there?”
And then judge her reaction. If you’re not too far off, they usually jump! People have a hard time hiding negative reactions. If she doesn’t go all in?
“(laugh) You don’t look like you’re not loving it. OK, we’ll try $restaurant.”
Or maybe she presents you with two wardrobe options before going out. Pick one, and be assertive. Even if you don’t care one way or the other.
“That one! That will look great on you!”
No thanks.
I’m not interested in playing those games.Basic human interaction is now “games”. Talking to people in ways they understand and react positively to is now a “game”.
Ever heard of 4chan? Head over there, you’ll fit right in.
if you’re following a script to optimize the outcome then yes, you’re playing games.
I value authenticity and honesty even if suboptimal/inconvenient.
Dunno, maybe that’s just my autism showing.Also, i don’t appreciate you calling me names.
