cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/29035971

Posting here for preservation’s sake

Image in removed comment was the attached Palpatine image. Curious to see if the same admin mod would remove these screenshots if I crosspost them to !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com , which they also admin and mod. Would I get a fair trial there or will my dissenting and others’ be silenced?

You can’t say you’re against disinfo if you’re knowing and intentionally promulgating it and abetting its usage. They also didn’t even remove the Reddit watermark.

This is why I don’t assign identities unto myself, because you criticize one action done wrong by leaders of an ideology or movement and bam! you’re shut out of it completely. They’ve lost the aid of an ally and progress is impeded by being shorted a participant trying to correct the course.

  • go $fsck yourself@lemmy.worldEnglish
    83·
    3 days ago

    Then you must first explain how all arguments against AI are right-wing capitalist ideals. Which you have not done that, so the way you are acting is preposterous.

    • Unruffled [they/them]@lemmy.dbzer0.comM
      87·
      3 days ago
      1. Being anti-AI is an intrinsically reactionary position to hold.
      2. Leftists should be trying to seize the means of production, not trying to destroy them.
      3. The anti-AI movement puts heavy emphasis on the impact on artists, but most leftists don’t believe in copyright or the ownership/privatization of ideas and that includes things like art. Artists absolutely should be publicly funded and properly compensated for their work. But simply fighting against AI tooling will accomplish nothing, and arguably serves to perpetuates copyright rent-seeking by corporations and individuals.
      4. Fighting against or banning the use of AI tools in leftist spaces will accomplish nothing, except to give the capitalists an advantage over leftists. The genie is already out of the bottle. AI tooling, although incredibly annoying in some aspects (such as when it gets inserted into fucking notepad) is also extremely powerful and useful for certain applications. Why would we want to fight with a hand tied behind our backs over some romantic idyll of pre-gen AI times?
      5. A hammer can be a tool or a weapon. Same with AI. Nobody is talking about banning hammers, despite the fact they are often used as weapons or for nefarious purposes.
      6. The anti-AI movement is primitivist and regressive in nature. It hearkens back to the “good old days” when artists were well compensated by rich patrons, and artisans and skilled craftsmen filled every small town. It’s a fantasy that never really existed, and one that will never exist under capitalism.
      7. FOSS AI projects are available such as Db0’s AI Horde which seeks to democratic access to GenAI. There is no requirement to use corporate tooling.
      • go $fsck yourself@lemmy.worldEnglish
        86·
        2 days ago
        1. That’s an opinion, not a fact. And while I agree that in many circumstances there are plenty of reactionary responses, it does not get anywhere close to 100%.
        2. Irrelevant to the point.
        3. You’re conflating an “anti-AI movement” with just not liking AI.
        4. I never made any claims about banning AI or even fighting against it, really. Not sure why you’re ascribing that to me, and it doesn’t provide any argument to the main claim that “disliking AI is always from right-wing capitalism”.
        5. While I get your overall point here and mostly agree that AI is ‘just a tool’, the rest of your point is based on banning, which is not part of the discussion. Also, it’s a pretty false equivalent argument, but I assume you’re not expecting it to be a 1:1 comparison, just trying to make the point that it’s just a tool and should not be labeled as inherently bad.
        6. Once again, you’re conflating an “anti-AI movement” with just not liking AI. I don’t know if there’ some big coordinated “anti-AI movement” that makes that argument in particular and I’ve somehow never heard of it or seen any evidence of, but it seems to me you’ve created a fake, absurd strawman.
        7. That’s great and helps obviate one of my main issues with AI.

        In total, you’ve made zero arguments for the logic that any sentiment of disliking AI should be met with hostility and all comes from a source of “right-wing liberals”. All I see is unfounded attempts of vilifying people who simply disagree with you by shoving a label onto them. Another way to describe this is “bad-jacketing”.

        I suggest you read about “bad-jacketing”. Particularly as a moderator and that it is described in rule 1 of the instance.

        I will now disengage because I have ample evidence that you and _cryptagion don’t intend on a genuine interaction.

        • irelephant [he/him]🍭@lemm.ee
          5·
          1 day ago

          For a disengage call to be valid, it must not be accompanied by other arguments on the existing topic. A disengage is not meant to be a trump card to have the last word.

          I don’t think it works like that.

        • Mystic Mushroom [Ze/Zir]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          86·
          2 days ago

          You’re conflating an “anti-AI movement” with just not liking AI.

          @Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com is literally an admin, they have access to voter and user metric data that you don’t. Who are you to claim there isn’t brigading or a movement going on? That’s right you don’t and can’t actually know better than they do. If I didn’t know better I might think you were trying to deny this issue due to your part in it.

            • Unruffled [they/them]@lemmy.dbzer0.comMEnglish
              6·
              2 days ago

              Yeah, thanks for the heads up. I’ve proposed in !div0_governance@lemmy.dbzer0.com to update the instance rules to disallow anti-genAI trolling in communities where genAI is allowed. They can take their pro-copyright-rentseeking campaign elsewhere. Don’t know why they thought it would fly here.

              I’ve got no real problem with folks taking that position tbh, but it’s not ok to dogpile posts on our communities like has happened here. I’m also somewhat sympathetic to the argument that GenAI is having an impact on artists’ livelihoods. But they haven’t connected the dots that this is only an issue because of greedy corporations trying to fuck over artists. They are directing all their anger towards GenAI instead of the real source of the problem. By all means advocate for greedy corporations to stop using AI to increase their profits at the expense of artists. But to come into a leftist space and demand that we stop using AI too is at best tokenistic, and at worst just serves to obfuscate the fundamental problem.

              The users engaged in trolling here and tying to excuse it as “activism” should think harder about who they are fighting with and why. Even if we did capitulate and ban genAI, that would have zero impact on artists, because we don’t pay for artists in the first place. It’s nothing but virtue signalling and tokenism. The Luddites didn’t go around breaking into peoples houses and smashing their spinning wheels. They went to factories owned by rich men and companies to destroy machinery in order to disrupt production and fight for workers rights and safety. Good on them too! If the anti genAI brigade were fighting against Getty’s (or Adobe, etc.) use of AI that might actually have a useful leftist purpose, and the analogy with the Luddites would work. Instead they are here causing a nuisance in a leftist community, over some random crossposted GenAI meme. Good work guys - job done I guess, the capitalists must be quaking in their boots right now because of your “activism”.

                • Unruffled [they/them]@lemmy.dbzer0.comMEnglish
                  2·
                  1 day ago

                  I get your point but I’d like to be able to be able to push back against this type of behaviour at an instance level if required, without the anti GenAI crowd complaining about there not being a specific instance level rule against it. I think I’m in favour of generalizing the rule though as suggested by other commenters, so that it covers things like anti-piracy activism in c/piracy too, for example. Some communities are intended for debate, and others are just communities of shared interests where folks want to learn and hang out, but not be dogpiled with hateful comments attacking their interests. And lastly, GenAI is a core founding theme of our instance, so it makes sense (to me) to make the rule instance level as well.

              • Mystic Mushroom [Ze/Zir]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                4·
                2 days ago

                Yeah I agree, the Anti AI movement (and it is a movement) is extremely reactionary and doesn’t accomplish anything. Certainly isn’t helping artists. And yeah they’re not even comparable to luddites who went after factories back in the day. Anti-AI trolls are going after individual people, often harassing people, also deciding to use any arguments even ones proven to be lies or faulty. They’re inadvertently helping big corporations by making themselves and their movement look like quacks or trolls.

                Yeah, thanks for the heads up. I’ve proposed in !div0_governance@lemmy.dbzer0.com to update the instance rules to disallow anti-genAI trolling in communities where genAI is allowed. They can take their pro-copyright-rentseeking campaign elsewhere. Don’t know why they thought it would fly here.

                Did you post it yet? I didn’t see it there.

                • irelephant [he/him]🍭@lemm.ee
                  2·
                  1 day ago

                  The Luddites were a 19th century guerrilla movement that smashed textile machines, burned factories and threatened their owners. But they were not motivated by a fear of technology […] the luddites […] were engaged in the most science-fictional exercise imaginable – asking not what a technology does, but who it does it to and who it does it for. The Luddites, you see, were skilled weavers whose intense physical labor produced the textiles that clothed the nation. The difficulty of their trade – both in terms of esoteric knowledge and physical prowess – allowed them to command high wages and good working conditions.

                  All that was threatened by the advent of textile machines, which produced more fabric in less time, and required less skill. The owners of textile factories bought these machines with profits derived from the weavers’ labor, and then used those machines to grind down the weavers. Their hours got longer, their pay got shorter, and many of them were maimed or killed by the new machines.

                  Weaving engines are ingenious and delightful machines. The Luddites had no beef with the machines – their cause was the social relations that governed those machines. By painting Luddites as mere technophobes, we strip ourselves of the ability to learn from history. The lesson of the Industrial Revolution is that merely asking what a machine does and not who it does it for and to can lead to literal genocide.

                  https://pluralistic.net/2022/01/04/general-ludd/

                  • Unruffled [they/them]@lemmy.dbzer0.comMEnglish
                    4·
                    1 day ago

                    The Luddites had no beef with the machines – their cause was the social relations that governed those machines

                    Agreed, and I have no beef with the Luddites. I’m fully supportive of the effort to hold commercial AI corporations accountable for the way they are enabling owners of capital to exploit AI to cause harm to artists and other workers. But if the anti-GenAI crowd followed the example of the Luddites, they shouldn’t be blaming the tooling. If they went after those who create and/or use the tooling to exploit people, rather than attacking those who use the tools (especially for a positive or harmless purpose) then I’d be fully supportive of that goal. Instead they are too busy cyber-bullying fellow Lemmy users and mods.

                  • Mystic Mushroom [Ze/Zir]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                    1·
                    11 hours ago

                    That’s good, glad to hear it. That wasn’t really something I was arguing against though with the OG claim, as I have no doubt that some probably many of the vote manipulation accounts out there are manually operated.

                • Unruffled [they/them]@lemmy.dbzer0.comMEnglish
                  4·
                  2 days ago

                  I’m not sure about that one but feel free to community ban them if they have been downvoting a lot. I instanced banned the (almost) empty account you mentioned. Fuck those guys. I hope you can feel free to reach out to me or one of the other admins if you get cyberbullied and you need someone to disclose to.

          • go $fsck yourself@lemmy.worldEnglish
            56·
            2 days ago

            Blatantly ignoring disengage while also making absolutely unfounded and ridiculous claims. Absolutely shameful.

            You think admins are infallible? You’re only attacking me with these claims because I’m calling out someone who happens to be an admin. They are still human and, clearly, capable of doing wrong.

            The whole point of this conversation is that it is wrong to assume everyone who simply shows a dislike in AI is a ‘right-wing pro-capitalist liberal’. That is a judgement of a person’s ideals and values based on a single metric that has no inherent connection to right-wing liberalism.

            Now you have convinced me to block this entire instance because of this abhorrent behavior.

            • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.comM
              11·
              2 days ago

              Blatantly ignoring disengage while also making absolutely unfounded and ridiculous claims. Absolutely shameful.

              You are attempting to abuse the disengage rule. If you want to disengage, you’re not supposed to also try to put the last word in. Just disengage without arguing further.

              • go $fsck yourself@lemmy.worldEnglish
                67·
                2 days ago

                Right. I misunderstood thinking that it meant that all people must respect the person’s desire to be left out of it. It would probably be a better rule if that were the case. But, apparently rules don’t really matter here anyways.

                I also missed an important part of it:

                For a disengage call to be valid, it must not be accompanied by other arguments on the existing topic. A disengage is not meant to be a trump card to have the last word.

                It still doesn’t excuse the disgusting behavior.

                I simply wanted to be done, because there is zero respect shown here.

                I’m also now frustrated that the instance block appears to not be working, since I got a notification for this reply.

                I don’t want to deal with any interactions with anything or anyone related to db0 after this appalling lack of any respect, utterly shameful accusations, and weird cult-like attitude towards an admin.

                • _cryptagion [he/him]@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
                  7·
                  2 days ago

                  Since you obviously have no intention of actually disengaging, there’s no problem with me pointing out that the disgusting behavior here is you intruding upon our instance to push your own shitty agenda, while insisting we abide by your dumbass rules about civility so we don’t hurt your fweelings. This is the problem with you self-righteous .world liberal hacks, you think the entire fediverse is your own little kingdom to do whatever you wish in, but can’t handle your cult-like world views being challenged.

                  Absolutely disgusting, and since you won’t be seeing our communities anymore, I say good riddance, and absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever was lost by not having you around.

                • NSRXN@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  8·
                  2 days ago

                  an instance block will stop db0 content from showing in your feed… comments will still populate and users can still comment back to you.