“oh, you’re lgbtq? well time to puff-puff-pass” - leviticus 20:13, stoner version
imagine believing in such a hateful ideology. I’d be ashamed to say i am christian.
I’m a practicing Christian and go to church every week. I also think homophobes are shitheads who don’t deserve the love and mercy of God.
The biblical scholar Walter Bruggeman wrote a great essay on the interpretation of homophobic biblical verses that is really good (https://outreach.faith/2022/09/walter-brueggemann-how-to-read-the-bible-on-homosexuality/).
But also just plain old have some common sense that the people of the ancient world didn’t have the same insight we do into human attraction and sexuality, and we can grow and evolve and know better. Also, even if you don’t agree with people being queer, you also have the ability to shut your mouth about it and keep it to yourself, and be the loving Christian you profess to be no matter what your personal beliefs are, and you have no right to tell people who to love, period.
Why do you practice a religion that requires any practicioner to interpret these abhorrent texts in their own manner? It just leaves a lot of room to interpret anything the wrong way. And unsurprisingly, some people will interpret this in a homophobic way, and honestly, I can’t blame them. The texts themselves are just wrong and shouldn’t be preached.
Because they’re a fucking idiot that believes magic people come back from the dead and that some vaguely sapient being created the entire vastness of the infinite universe with its mind boggling complexity, and sent another magic person to earth to help humanity, and that instead of offering actual help, like, you know, telling people that mold kills bacteria, he just said a bunch of shit about love that can easily be misinterpreted.
Seriously, if Jesus had just taught people about penicillin and then died he’d have done infinitely more good and infinitely less harm than he did.
All that idiotic, steaming horse shit in the bible and not one fucking sliver of insight into the nature of the fucking world. Not one.
Does the majority of your congregation share your opinion as well?
Everyone does, and we have some queer and trans congregants too. Our official position is that we welcome all queer people in every way. Actually a bunch of people at another church left and joined us because that church came out as non-affirming of queer people.
Probably depends on which version of Christianity they go with
Which version of Christianity do you consider to be more accepting?
Most of the non American ones
meanwhile they ignore that King David was gay in the bible. like super gay with no heterosexual interpretation possible.
1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
Context- https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+2%3A11-15&version=NIV
I need a few more verses like this in my arsenal. I don’t want people citing religious texts at me for how to live my life, Ive read like 5% of the/a christian bible and zero of the others. I don’t agree as a concept, might as well be quoting star wars at me, but if they insist on fighting with the book its nice to have ways to win with the book.
Try Psalm 137 on for size. 8 O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed, Blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us! 9 Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks!
Hosea 1 is wild: 8 “And when [Gomer the harlot] weaned No Mercy (And I thought Tragedeigh was a bad name for a girl!), she conceived and bore a son. 9 And the Lord said,” Call his name Not my People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God.
Also if fundies claim that the husband leads the wife like God leads the church, Hosea 2 gives a good idea of what “Godly husbandmanship” looks like.
And of course, Leviticus is full of all kinds of “fun” things to have as soundbites, like humiliation rituals for menstruation or” suspected" infidelity, when a rapist can marry his victim, and how badly you can beat a slave before you get into trouble for it.
In the UK it’s “A man who Walkers with another man”
Ironically the verse was mistranslated- it was a man who lays with a boy
https://www.advocate.com/religion/2022/12/17/how-bible-error-changed-history-and-turned-gays-pariahs
Of course it was. Of course Christianity took a line intended to protect children from abuse and “mistranslated” it to be homophobic.
Well it is also very important for Christians that molesting boys is just “oopsies” but not gay.
Considering how in the original Greek text of the New Testament the Apostles were all described as being between 10 and 19 years of age hanging out with 30-something year old Jesus, and how Jesus’ crucifixion was a result of him being caught in the middle of the night in the Garden of Gesthemane (Mark 14:51-52) with a naked boy, yeah I’d say they have a complicated relationship with gay molestation of the underage.
Certainly not the mainstream view taught in church but classical philologist Dr. Ammon Hillman has the receipts.
I mean, Jesus has limitless love, right?
It’s less about it being gay that’s the problem than the fact that it’s an unspeakably horrific crime.
Intentionally covering for pedophiles, in my mind, removes any shred of credibility for the “moral guidance” offered by said organization. I was raised Catholic but I think even if I hadn’t become irreligious as I am now, I would still shun the Catholic church for a denomination less insanely corrupt and evil.
Can’t really pretend that it’s not interpreted that way by some Jewish people. Not Reformed but certainly among the Orthodox.
Iirc, the hebrew word that gets translated to ‘lay’ is also a pretty suspect translation. Its only other usage in the OT (and our only other known context for it) is to describe a man pursuing his wife’s servant, and contextually, is more likely to mean ‘molest’ or ‘rape’ than to describe consensual sex.
The 2 words translated to ‘man’ are also different- the first being ‘ish’ the second being ‘zachar’
While both can generally refer to anyone male, ish can be used in the context of ‘anyone’, or ‘husband/ man of the house’, whereas Zachar is often used biblically to refer to young males, and /or subordinates.
So put together, this passage is likely ‘nobody should be molesting boys,’ or ‘a master shouldn’t rape his servants or children’
A lot of scholars point out that homosexuality wasn’t really a concept in the ancient world. Neither was marriage for love or anything other than a means to perpetuate genes and familial property. But what was very much a concept was machismo. Being a “bottom” (in different terms back then) was considered degrading and “womanly,” and that was typically the issue at hand, according to many scholars, such as DanMcClellan, Robert Alter, and Jerome Walsh.
Have they not hear about power bottoms?
Like electricity and central heating, they hadn’t made that discovery yet
Holy hell, they are just schlepping through life forcing the top to generate all of the power?
Now I’m depressed.
Unfortunately not mistranslated, but for sure another outdated thing to ignore. I heard it was probably discouraging people from joining a nearby cult thing in Egypt that had male male acts, which sounds like it was more about religious competition than homosexuality, but I’m no expert.
Except it was mistranslated? There’s been quite a few studies showing it
Nice try Ai Spy boy.
Beep boop
yeah because they cared so much
stop those disgusting apologetics
Huh? What was I apologizing for? The passage is mistranslated in English, wtf are you on about?
Just fyi, scholarly Bible interpretation is called “apologetics”.
They were studying language translation, after noticing the translations from Hebrew to German were very different than from Hebrew to English. It wasn’t interpretation of the material, it was an analysis of the translations.
I’m just responding to your “huh what am I apologizing for” part. They’re not talking about apologizing, they were talking about the subject apologetics or the study of the Bible (which includes the study of translations).
The “mistranslation” is a disgusting myth, the bible and the primitives who wrote it didn’t give a fuck about pedophilia and you should not spread this disgusting lie. Reported.
Dude, you are lashing out at the wrong people. Be angry at the people who use religion to rape, murder, opress. Don’t be angry at people who discuss obscure translation errors.
You ok bro?
That and in a neat holiday mood 🥰 thanks for asking, bible apologist.
You know that discussing the Bible is not the same as apologetics?
I get religious trauma sucks, but the critical analysis of primary source texts from the ancient Near East has absolutely nothing to do with your shitty pastor giving you a hard time for being gay.
I invite you to name a 9th century BCE society that fits whatever moral requirements you think are needed to make a culture worthy of historical study.
Any society is worth studying ;)
The Bible is open to interpretation
I believe that line was originally written as “man shall not lie with boys” and is about pedophilia, not homosexuality.
Nah, it was about the sinfulness of sharing Lays brand potato chips
You can share the chips but you can’t grow the potatoes.
Excellent point, buttnugget
And translation issues. Words and meaning can change a lot when something is translated. Leviticus went from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English (and most other modern languages of course).
I interpret it as a mid fantasy book. The epilogue is fucking boring as hell.
The modern translation is a fairytale but if you get into the original Greek bible texts and supporting and opposing texts from Greco-Roman civilization it paints a very interesting picture of the corruption of the ancient world into the situation we call Western Civilization today. Hopeful eras where humanity improved like the Renaissance and the American Revolutionary War were in large part due to study and reemergence of pre-Christian pagan ideas from Greek antiquity.
This sounds like interesting material.
Any books out there that compare and contrast? I’m curious, but not enough to possess two different Bibles.
Biblehub has a Greek text option and full translation of words if you want to dive in. Most of the ideas I picked up from Dr. Ammon Hillman who has a couple of books out from several years ago, you can find quite a few interviews with him online and he livestreams at least weekly. Quite a fertile field of study, the differences in Bible texts between English/Latin and the original Greek.
Question: does fucking a parallel universe self count as being gay? Does it count as incest? Self-cest?
What about fucking yourself from an hour ago through time travel? Are you double-gay? Does that means you can use a Uno +2 card on the catholic priest?
Masturbation is incest, i die on that hill
Fucking some other version and/or copy of yourself as you described is textbook selfcest. it’s gay $\iff$ that other you is the same gender, which it typically is, but fucking you’re rule 63’d self is non-gay selfcest. It’s possibly the most incestuous thing you can do though, even beyond twincest.
The double-gay theory seems to be working under the assumption that it’s double because you fucked twice. I don’t find that idea completely unreasonable but it doesn’t seem like anyone claims to be twice as gay because they had gay sex twice, so I’m leaning on that interaction with the priest not working out in your favor.
That just sounds like masturbation with extra steps
Of course Christians are absolutely fine with people being gay.
After all, they’re the ones down on their knees hoping for a man to come for the second time.
And God, despite being male presenting, identifies as non-binary. Per them/thier own words, God created at least three genders.
Huehuehuehue
Mordekaiser? What are you doing here?
I don’t think the Bible actually says that, but it would be funny
however the Bible says that being gay is normal and cool.
with a King having a gay lover and writing poetry that says “his love was greater than any woman”. and he’s still considered one of the greatest kings in the bible.
King David, putting the Bi in Bible
The joke is that the bible says they should be stoned as in having stones thrown at them, not the other meaning.
Anyway, the people of biblical times didn’t have a concept of homosexuality so it doesn’t make sense to say they condemned it. They condemned male same sex activities as much as wearing clothes of different materials and many Christians come to the conclusion that both is fine. But if you have hatred in your heart, you will skip “love your neighbor” and select the few passages that can be interpreted hatefully.
I get the joke but I’m not sure the Bible actually says those words “a man who lays with a man should be stoned”. I know it says men shouldn’t lay with men.
Edit: just googled Leviticus 20:13, it says they’ve committed an abomination and should die. It doesn’t say stoned.
It is an interesting story, but I don’t think the Gay community is being helped by bibles quotes. Hateful people quote the bible to publicly justify their hate, but its not why they hate. The hate comes from within and will be justified in a million different ways.
If you corrected all the bibles today, automagically, a new prophet will suddenly appear to reveal god’s wisdom to kill gays tomorrow and a new religion will be born.
I have experience with this myself. In my country it was rare with black people when I grew up, and there was a lot of actual racism. I was also racist back then because I didnt like black people coming to my country. They were different and annoying. I didnt see any positives with it.
But as more and more black people have arrived in the country, millions of them, they are everywhere. And almost nobody is racist anymore. Its normal for everyone who grows up now. Nobody thinks about it.
So it will be the same with gay people. It will take time but eventually, the generations who grew up with many gay people around wont hate it at all, or think about it. It always happens with time.
On Mobile, copy paste is not working, so paraphrasing:
They are everywhere and almost nobody is racist anymore
Take a cue from the US. The racists are still racists. They are just currently quietly pissed and likely working to be openly racist again.
Fighting against hate requires constant vigilance.
CONE not CORN,
DUMMY
