After seeing a megathread praising Mao Zedong, an actual mass killer, and a post about a guy saying “99% of westerners are 100000000000% sure they know what happened in ‘Tiny Man Square’ […] the reasons for this are complex and involve propaganda […],” I am genuinely curious what leads people to this belief system. Even if propaganda is involved when it comes to Tiananmen Square, it doesn’t change the atrocities that were/are committed everywhere else in China.
I am all for letting people believe what they want but I am lost on why one would deliberately praise any authoritarian system this hard.
Can someone please help me understand why this is such a large and prominent community? How have these ideals garnered such a following outside of China?
Simple answer: The things you think you know aren’t the truth. They’re just propaganda.
why one would deliberately praise any authoritarian system this hard.
To quote Bertrand Russell: “Much that passes as idealism is disguised hatred or disguised love of power.”
To put it simply, a lot of tankies crave power but just don’t want to admit. They are simply faux concerning for their own ulterior motive. I saw a meme from one of the .ml instances stating that communism simply “wants to improve” society. But I was like: didn’t you guys suppress free elections and speech and persecuted anyone who simply disagrees at the slightest?
It’s not uncommon for many authoritarian communists to become eventually become fascists, especially after the end of the Cold War. The ex-leader of Red Army faction became neo-fascist in 2000s. A local politician in my country ran on xenophobic platform, but was a member of a Marxist-Leninist party in the 1970s. All that said, it means these people simply run on whatever ideologies, so long as they can attain power for power’s sake.
it’s easier to believe in a fantasy than deal with the complicated reality
I empathize with some of the thinking, but I don’t necessarily agree with it. To keep it simple, imagine how many different world powers are working to sabotage openly Socialist and Communist governments. What kinds of tools and resources might these world powers have at their disposal? I can’t imagine being part of a disfavored leftist government and not becoming haggard and paranoid beyond reason.
I break it down like this:
Free-for-all Capitalism has gotten us this shit state.
Free for all Communism has never worked in any meaningful way. Now, the always ready retort is “it’s never had the chance to!” to which I’d reply: it never will. If it can compete with other forms of governance let it rip, but… ? where is the success story?
Democratic Socialism has worked for the US already: the new deal, labor rights, Social Security, 40hr work week, etc., et.c,
/then came the 80s… reaganomics destroyed unions, made education a gamble… conservatives saw a path to reducing it all.
Democratic Socialism works very well in other countries all over the world: they recognize there are certain services that are critical to provide in order for democracy to function: fire, police, healthcare, disability affordances, so many things that government is uniquely situated to promote and provide.
I’m happy to change from free-for-all-capitalism, welcome it, but you can’t point to a hypothetical end point that’s never ever existed AND won’t be allowed to exist as long as resources require capital.
I would argue that Democratic Socialism works somewhat better than the perverse form of capitalism that exists today. It does have its flaws also. See the increasing surveillance of the population in the EU that is being pushed by politicians as a start.
At some point in the future, socialism will fail just like every other form of governance humans have devised.
Free for all Communism has never worked in any meaningful way. Now, the always ready retort is “it’s never had the chance to!” to which I’d reply: it never will. If it can compete with other forms of governance let it rip, but… ? where is the success story?
The problem is that this is false. Socialist countries led by communist parties have consistently brought dramatic, radical improvements over what came before in a way that far surpasses any upsides of capitalism. Metrics like life expectancy, in many cases, increase by 50-100%, poverty rates plummet, land reform helps end famine where it was once common (a huge part of life expectancy increases), and their economies are democratized in a way that fundamentally doesn’t exist in capitalist countries. Socialism works.
Communism is a post-socialist stateless, classless, moneyless society. Communist parties have always governed socialist countries, because communism has not yet been achieved, and is itself a global phenomenon.
Not sure what you mean by “free for all.”
Democratic Socialism works very well in other countries all over the world: they recognize there are certain services that are critical to provide in order for democracy to function: fire, police, healthcare, disability affordances, so many things that government is uniquely situated to promote and provide.
You’re confusing social democracy for socialism. Social safety nets within the boundaries of capitalism are not socialism, socialism is not when the government does stuff. Capitalism is a mode of production characterized by private ownwership as the principle aspect of the economy and capitalists in control of the state, with socialism being public ownership as principle and the working classes in charge of the state.
“Democratic Socialism” itself is a a vague term. Socialism is already democratic, rule by the majority is a necessity when the working class is in control of the state. What it ends up meaning in practice is socialism relying heavily on electoralism and reformism, such as in Chile under Allende and in Venezuela.
The important factor here is that the social democracies that are doing the best, their safety nets are largely funded by imperialism and unequal exchange. These are not internally driven systems, but closer to landlords in country form towards the global south. Now that imperialism as a global system is weakening, we can actually track the erosion of safety nets in these social democracies, and in the general shift to the far-right.
I’m happy to change from free-for-all-capitalism, welcome it, but you can’t point to a hypothetical end point that’s never ever existed AND won’t be allowed to exist as long as resources require capital.
We can point to the real existing socialism in the real world and uphold their gains. No socialist country has been perfect, of course, all have had problems and struggles. They have, however, always been progressive and emancipatory as compared to what came before, and more effective at providing for their people compared to peer capitalist countries, without relying on imperialism.
For the same reason people fall into fascism. Capitalism is putting the screws to people. Rent is too high, food is too expensive, people are on a treadmill, and dissatisfaction hangs in the air like miasma. People are mad, and they don’t know at what. They sense something is rotten, they dont have the words. Fascism co-opts leftist talking points, but pulls a bait and switch with the Jews and migrants and whoever.
Tankies also start from this choking miasma, you look at Tankie propaganda, its compelling. The US commited genocide and war crimes, and is more racist than you know. Capitalists are terrible, yadda yadda you know it. Tankie propaganda also frames politics as a team sport. When you look at the US (or you can look at it as the “Nato Empire,” which can be an interesting way to think about it), as the ultimate evil, can be easy to see anyone opposing them as good or worth supporting.
same way people fall into conservative mindset, propaganda. you hear a little snippet of here and there, and ragebaiting or drama, add in a little racism and authotarianism, which both extreme loves. you fall on either opposites of the spectrum politically. they also dont bother to research on the actual material of being “hard left”
How do people fall into any mindset. Scientology is more wacky but also way more prolific than Tankies. Why do you have a hard time wrapping your mind around Tankies if something even crazier exists.
Tiananmen square is one of those things Tankies are generally correct about. There was no massacre, but they also fail to realize there could have been one if things had gone differently that day.
They use this as a decent proof that Western propaganda is lies. Of course it is, so is China’s propaganda. There are no good guys. As someone who discovered the awful truth of the US early on I spent a lot of time contemplating alternatives.
I could see how if I had stopped studying and just landed on the “West is wrong” I could have adopted many of their views. I didn’t though, I kept digging.
As other posters point out they are not really large. They also hit above their weight with their constant pushing of propaganda along with many alts and suppressive behavior on their instance. This is why I found them so distasteful. Their admins were outright abusive. I blocked a few and that solved 99% of the problem.
scientology is a pure grifting “religion” made by a guy that dint like to pay taxes on his books.
There was no massacre, but they also fail to realize there could have been one if things had gone differently that day.
We’re acutely aware of what would have happened if Gene Sharp, the CIA, and the goons they armed, funded, and trained had been successful.
The blueprint of regime change operations How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent
Always in denial.
While the US might be the worst in history China is no slouch. MSS is just like the CIA and is responsible for countless violations of human rights.
The only real leg to stand on is they are not as prolific as the US. Considering they pumped out more billionaires than the US this year and have fully embraced fascism I think they are well on their way.
I have no idea what you think that proves or disproves about the straw man argument in your head.
That because of one person’s decision less bloodshed happened and that the government did order troops to a peaceful protest.
Not sure why you are so butthurt about the truth.
Not sure why you are so butthurt about the truth.
I’m not? The truth is what happened, not what might have happened. As for what might have happened, there would have been no violence at all if US hadn’t been there to instigate it.
Because the communist party was so peaceful.
Like when they starved 150,000+ of their citizens to death in the Siege of Changchun?
Maybe their rebels had real reasons and not just western propaganda. Good thing I don’t need to defend any superpower.
Like when they starved 150,000+ of their citizens to death in the Siege of Changchun?
You’re right, they should have just laid down arms and let the fascist KMT slaughter them and run the country like Mussolini or Hirohito might have.
Maybe their rebels had real reasons and not just western propaganda.
There’s no maybe about it. You can read and hear their real reasons: they wrote them down and recorded them on tape. Go find them and see who & what you’re trying to defend.
Time for you to study socialist/communist theory - https://redsails.org/
I’d argue that they functionally don’t exist.
Sure, here you run into them here in this universe…not a great sample size. I’m a really social person who spent years in deep leftist Canada…and I’m one of the most radical socialist (whatever you want to call it…all the terms are fraught) folks I’ve met. I’m definitely nowhere near a tankie.
I’ve met exactly one true “tankie”. Good friend…always making excuses for atrocities…it spills over into radical support for modern day Russia etc…but dude is also a silver spooner who works for his dads investment firm.
I honestly wish there were more tankies…and among the lower classes where they should be…but many of the poor people I know are conservatives or nihilists/anarchists.
that friends sounds more like bourgeois, oligarchy than a leftist. kinda like how “hasan” pretends to be a leftist on his streams, hes a grifter.
How do people actually fall into the “Tankie” mindset?
The MLs answering in good faith despite the question being framed in bad faith have exceptional grace.
a post about a guy saying “99% of westerners are 100000000000% sure they know what happened in ‘Tiny Man Square’ […] the reasons for this are complex and involve propaganda […]”
Oh hey I know that guy. If anyone who wants to know more about propaganda & media literacy, please see also: previously.
Cool. I now have your account tagged properly.
Cool. Thanks for the firehose of downvotes, stalwart patriot.
Well for sure one of the reason is that even in non marxist communities they show up and write comments in a style that many people resonate with. I mean using citations, good grammar, appealing to logic, (seemingly) good argumentations etc.
This makes them look reasonable and even if you do not read all their sources, you might remember their comments and talking points in a pretty positive light.
I dont want to say this style of arguing is bad, but I think it gets valued higher than arguments based on intuition and emotion with a less “scientific” style, because that is what many people are taught when growing up, going to school etc.
Also I would like to say, in some cases this “showing up” is done in a way that feels invasive to (parts of) communties. Like an online version of Jehovas Witnesses.
Propaganda and self interest. Pick whatever story is being told that you feel like picking and that’s it.
I’d wager half or more of the tankie posts are bots, paid posters in 3rd world countries, or slave labor in 3rd world countries. The rest are a combo of incest, edge lords, nihilistic, and some vanishingly small number of actual true believers in the power of Fascist accelerated forced Communism.
Marx and his allies believed Communism can’t come about by force, only by natural progression following the unavoidable natural collapse of capitalism. Our experience seems to demonstrate that attempting to force any of it only ever sets the process back.
Ignoring the conspiracy theory about communists being paid to be communists (I wish, instead I pay dues to my org), this in particular is false:
Marx and his allies believed Communism can’t come about by force, only by natural progression following the unavoidable natural collapse of capitalism.
Marx was revolutionary. The fundamental transformation from a society where private ownetship is principle and capitalists in charge of the state into one where public ownership is principle and the working class in charge of the state requires revolution. The idea that capitalism paves the way for socialism by centralizing and increasing the number of proletarians as compared to capitalists and entering worse and worse crisis doesn’t mean that you can only have a revolution in a developed capitalist country, or that we simply wait on our hands for capitalism to collapse and pray socialism takes its place.
I’d wager half or more of the tankie posts are bots, paid posters in 3rd world countries, or slave labor in 3rd world countries.
And yet no Lemmy admin will take your wager, because they have access to way more information than you do, and they don’t see evidence to support it.
Marx and his allies believed Communism can’t come about by force, only by natural progression following the unavoidable natural collapse of capitalism.
Anyone who’s done even a Marxism 101 amount of reading knows this to be false. Neither Marx, Engels, Lenin, or any other major figures said that nature will just inevitably take its course all on its own. All of them were revolutionaries who advocated for influencing its course, not standing idly by.
The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point, however, is to change it. — Marx
alot of does sound botty.
Imo this has been a good thread with opportunities for large and well thought out posts from marxists who are being responded to with well thought out positions, and responding in kind. There’s a lot of the classic dross, but I like seeing people’s posts appear to be getting up and downvoted based on content.
Not the usual entertaining brigading, but a good read nonetheless.
100% agreed
It is nice to see something other than the usual shitflinging online.
Tribalism
They opposed one tribe so they joined another
These kinds of answers are just the silliest. If you don’t know why we think the things we do—which you obviously don’t—then don’t “contribute” to the conversation with the first thing that pops into your head. It’s okay to not know things.
They’re not going to do that, because investigation of socialist positions would require them to confront the cognitive dissonance of their own beliefs. And once you go against mainstream liberal groupthink, you risk being ostracized by people calling you
wokea tankie.
This. Treating politics like team sports.
