No thanks, I’d rather use a Google Pixel with GrapheneOS
Image transcription:
buy privacy-first community driven phone look inside closed source OS with no recovery image and outdated dependencies
The most fascinating thing is how some in the open source community go wild against a tiny player delivering one of the most daily driveable phones with an OS other than from the big-tech duopoly (besides Huawei but that’s another topic). It doesn’t help that a system that is partially closed source (with the closed parts basically being only the home screen UI and the qt implementation) is misleadingly called “closed source OS”.
Especially the frenzy within the GrapheneOS community in this regard is curious.
Why can’t everyone just choose what they prefer without firing against other small alternative OS projects as if they were made by the devil?
I’ve been using Linux and Graphene for a long time and welcome all third party OS phones not controlled by Google and Apple. Jolla never marketed theirs in the USA and it always seemed more like a prototype phone for hobbyists more than a daily driver (same as all of the others).
This will probably continue to be the case until someone with deep pockets in the USA does a deal with a friendly phone OEM who makes a decent quality product and a mobile OS group who can make it at least as user friendly as Android. Considering the Byzantine labyrinth that Android’s user interface is today, the last part should not be that difficult.
I did get the new Jolla Phone as a daily driver and for my use case I even manage to use it fully natively and it does what I need it for. It does have some smaller bugs and some rought edges but it doesn’t feel like a prototype. I don’t have experience with other alternative systems but if I look at the postmarket wiki and they don’t list a single phone that is not meaningfully compromised in key functions, then I don’t think that it is the same as Sailfish OS on the new Jolla Phone.
I really like the idea of the Jolla and am seriously considering getting one. I’m also the exact target audience (Linux nerd, privacy conscious, FOSS advocate, want to own MY device fully, hate having to use a US-based duopoly in my current daily life).
That’s exactly why I don’t understand their decision to keep parts of their system closed. The overlap between people who want a Linux phone and who are OK with that Linux phone not being fully open seems to be tiny.
I can’t talk for Jolla. What I do know is that they have opened up meaningful parts in recent times. Even the one major remaining closed part, the UI, had important parts open sourced recently, with open sourcing of Lipstick.
I don’t think they will open source everything in the near future but possibly the qt environment might be on the list to come. If that were to happen the only essential part remaining would really be the home screen I think. So it is really that, are you purist and consider that a knock-out criterion or do you also have no problem with using closed source components with desktop Linux distributions?
I’m not really that purist - I’ll use closed-sourced software when necessary. For example, I have Davinci Resolve and Bitwig Studio installed. Sure I would prefer if those were open, but the target audience here are creatives, who largely won’t care.
On the other hand, Jolla is trying to sell exactly to those people that DO care, which makes the choice so hard to understand and support.
Better to support the smaller company than continue with the bigger ones until perfection is reached.
Still can’t get over the closed-source OS part. How do you know its privacy-first if you can’t verify it?
But you can. Its Linux+GNU with a partially open, partially closed source UI. So you can run tracing utilities and other tools even wireshark!) to check that it values your privacy. That statement that it is a fully closed OS from the OP is wrong.
partially closed source
I can’t think of a single scenario where this isn’t a red flag
If there’s even one proprietary BLOB inserted into your open-source OS, you no longer have an open-source OS. Pity, I really really liked the SailfishOS look&feel when I tried it briefly in 2015ish.
In that case hardware wise you are out of options. With the Librem 5 you get the closest. There you only have the CPU Microcode, Wifi and Bluetooth firmware, and the cellular modem & GNSS firmware.
Software wise you have quite a few options, albeit few are usable as daily drivers.
- Android drops out because it requires hardware with proprietary HAL. You would have to rewrite huge parts of the OS so that it runs without them.
- Postmarket OS is your best bet for a somewhat usable experience
- Many open source systems run, but calls are difficult to setup and partly unreliable.
- Pure OS should fit your goal best, Mobian second.
With a Droid 4 and Maemo Leste you can also get quite close but have no camera.
I know about the options you mention and yes, Iam not happy with them. I currently use LineageOS on a shiftphone, and I know this is far from perfect. I tried postmarketos on a pinephone 2-3 years ago and the telephony/modem was not working yet, also the battery life was <24 hours on standby (i.e. never touching the phone even once) :(
I wish… But currently there is no single complete open source option. And the Librem is interesting but coming from a de-facto totalitarian regime where I have trust issues. Especially because FISA court orders may prevent a company from disclosing that they have been legally forced to put a backdoot into their code.
Uh even this short stab is quite wrong. Here notes from Jolla itself for Sailfish OS 5.2
- As promised, users can unlock the Jolla Phone bootloader. A corresponding menu item can now be found at the System Settings / Developer tools
- Users can do factory reset from the System Settings
- Users can enter the recovery mode with the volume up key + power key combination
- Flashable images and fastboot will be provided (coming soon)
- The initial version of the Privacy Switch was implemented. The function is end user configurable and to start with, the users can control e.g. Bluetooth, WLAN, Location and AppSupport status with the switch. Further implementations are coming and the framework is available for community contributions.
The base of Sailfish OS is a full blown Linux, way more open than Android (more options for the user, less secure than Graphene, which has that as main goal) you can easily install/compile Linux software on it.
Close source components are used. Parts of the UI (Jolla is open sourcing more and more), libhybris to run closed source Android drivers, Android App Support.
So yes its not as open source as debian, but offers more freedom to modify the OS than Graphene and gives you near full control.
I do prefer a Fairphone, a Librem Phone or a PinePhone with postmarketOS though. Install Niri or MauiShell and Waydroid to it and you have pretty much it.
Yes thats pretty much the closest you can get to fully open source today. I have a number of devices I use:
- A Pixel 5 with Graphene because the modern world relies to much on Android Apps, also used as hotspot,
- A Nokia N9 for reading and light browsing, occasional navigation
- A Nokia N900 with Maemo Leste for secure administrative work.
We also have Sailfish devices in the house
Pixel 5 are pretty good, I’d really like to have one of these because they’re the nearest-to-mainline-Linux Android phones.
So basically no need to outrage?
Also not got mine yet in batch 1.
I’m in batch 2, so I guess I’ll be waiting for a while still.
another batch two here. Maybe the longer we wait the more polished the OS will be, so maybe worth the wait. Especially waiting for camera app/driver update. The front cam seems really fucked right now.
No, not at all. Just check the things claimed by @pewpew quickly with a search engine or an AI of your choice (Always check the sources it finds!) and you will see that the overwhleming majority is wrong and the rest is blown way out of proportion. See also my answer to his retort below.
The base of Sailfish OS is a full blown Linux, way more open than Android
Sorry, but no. AOSP and Graphene do not use any proprietary blobs. They are 100% open.
By your own post, SailfishOS uses closed source components.
So does Graphene.
Both ship: Firmware, the HAL components (which are way more critical in my eyes as they have low level hardware access and could hide anything from the OS) Example for these are: The Camera Stack, the Audio Stack, under Graphene the Widevine DRM components.
Sailfish can run without these, e.g. on the Pinephone. Graphene OS can’t Graphene additionally comes with an eSIM binary, which is disabled by default Sailfish comes with proprietary UI components, a choice the company made because of their limited manpower as it allowed them to provide features where currently no open source solution exists or existed at the time of implementation) examples are swipe gestures for the keyboard, MS Exchange support, Android App support. That not great, but far from a closed source system where everything is closed source. There exist many patches for UI components because they are partly open source.
The OS ist still Linux, that is true. It is even LInux+GNU which Android is not. It is Linux with closed source components, thats true too.
Both ship: Firmware, the HAL components (which are way more critical in my eyes as they have low level hardware access and could hide anything from the OS)
Aren’t firmware and HAL in hardware/devices in the source tree for graphene? Also the camera stack/etc isn’t Google’s, it’s Graphene’s.
The Widevine comment is fair, but Sailfish needs to support DRM, too, so they’re in the same boat, there.
So graphene is also not open source then by your metrics? So some of the ui is closed source while on an os where you can trace and verify what is going on but an android derivative where you cant track whats going on in the os as freely with more critical closed source portions of its hardware is supposedly more open to you?
Aren’t firmware and HAL in hardware/devices in the source tree for graphene?
So either you know its there because you care so much to have verified the source code or you are just getting defensive about something you literally arent verifying…
What? Are you arguing without comprehending?
And what makes you think it’s easier to trace what is happening in SailfishOS? Tracing isn’t hard in Android.
And AOSP does not make a complete system. There are still plenty of binary blobs in both for drivers to get a working phone.
It may be a private phone, but you don’t really know whats going on under those proprietary blobs.
Sailfish OS is the definition of proprietary software. You need to buy a subscription if you even want to install it on third party devices.
It’s like Windows but it claims to be private and commnunity driven while not providing the source code to the entire OS. It’s a little misleading to me
You are so wrong about many things that it seems like you have some personal anger towards it and just don’t care about having a fact based based opinion. It all reads like a fanboy of something else just blurting out shit they’ve heard without even trying to find out if it’s correct.
It may be a private phone, but you don’t really know whats going on under those proprietary blobs.
Yes thats not good, but also a problem of many common Linux distributions. If you have any linux-firmware-* packages installed on your system, they also contain similar binary blobs for the firmware. E.g. Intel or Qualcom wireless cards. But you can utilize all tools up to strace under Sailfish OS, to see what those drivers are accessing and check that they don’t do anything bad. Under Graphene OS, you can not do this. (But its resonable to trust the very privacy focused developer that they have checked and tested this and isolated them as far as possible on the OS level)
Sailfish OS is the definition of proprietary software. You need to buy a subscription if you even want to install it on third party devices.
Again this is not correct. If what you claim is true, how comes that the OS is available on all these devices?. Sailfish OS is open Source at its core and easily ported to new devices. What you can do is pay for the licensed content on official devices. That enables automatic updates and proprietary software as the MS Exchange support and the Android App Support. Though for the later you can also install Waydroid because, you know, its Linux! Paying Jolla however gives access to a more comfortable solution and support development of the platform.
It’s like Windows
Um… no. Can you port Windows to a new device? No, its source is closed. Does Microsoft support people hacking their OS? No, Jolla has community meetings for that. Do you have full Access udner Windows? No. Does Sailfish send your data to a third party? No. Does Sailfish show you adds? No, Does it force you to use AI? No and so on and so forth.
Please don’t hate on the one European company trying to do things right. Support them in making things better.
You also need a license to use Redhat Linux
Free to obtain and refresh every year for 16 devices
I don’t trust Google hardware. No graphene
Me neither. Feels like a fucking psyop, accounts on social media constantly pushing a phone made by the least trustworthy, least privacy-minded company on the entire planet.
I wish there was an up to date linux phone/tablet alternative. We are kind of lucky that there is still a google alternative. The closer google gets, the worse our choices get. And with the dev speed of google and apple, it is really hard to keep up with them. Even many basics are still missing on linux or a free android.
Volla?
The Fairphone can run Linux, can’t it?
But not everything works. One user is regularly posting updates (I think in !linuxphones@lemmy.ca) about getting all devices of their FP to work. They are making progress but it’s still tedious work and if they ever lose interest or something happens to them it can be years until someone capable can pick up the torch.
Man, I just want a pocketable device with Linux on it, with cell Bluetooth wifi gps antennas that can send and receive texts, calls and data. I don’t care about individual apps. If services can be reached via a browser, I’m good.
Ubuntu touch has a widr selection of devices that are 90% completed and at the bareminimum do what you want.
You don’t even need a shitty slow phone. Some of the oneplus phones work and they run on a snapdragon 845-865 which are the golden standard when it comes to emulation and other harder processes. I think the 845’s source code got leaked too so often projects will only work for that chip.
I’ve been keeping an eye on the Commodore Callback . Looks pretty good. I would just need Android Auto with CoMaps to work and I’ll buy it.
i really hope fairphone themselves picks it up. it would be incredible if fp7 (or 8, give them time) could be 100% (or close) compatible with linux out of the box. even if it required closed source blobs for like the radios or whatever. they can still ship with the option of regular android to not scare off the normies
i put postmarket on my fp5 and it runs pretty damn well. with a little more polish it absolutly could be my daily driver. it is very close.
i know its a lot to hope for, but i think faiphone is in a unique position to do this if they ever decided to.
I love PMOS, but isn’t it AOSP under the hood?
My understanding is that pmos is the exception in that it runs “pure” linux, whereas Ubuntu touch and Sailfish OS run Helium as a compatibility layer that allows them to use Android drivers
According to Distrowatch and Wikipedia it is based on Alpine Linux.
i dont think so… you need waydroid to run android apps. i think its proper linux…
Good to know! I haven’t been able to try one yet, so I wasn’t sure.
Yeah. Also PinePhone and Librem Phone.
From what I’ve seen the various Linux OSes for phones are pretty poor for real use, most features missing, unstable, very poor security, and so on.
Its pretty abysmal in the way of hardware security, and software. The gOS team did a deep dive on alternative devices to the pixel. Only device even close to the pixel was Samsung, but well… Samsung hates their consumers it seems and refuses to open their devices.
I mean it can… but it’s not exactly in the same universe as a somewhat polished user experience
I keep hoping if I say it enough I can will it into existence but I really think that thr steam frame is going to usher in a community made phone/tablet that runs on arch and uses fex just like the steam frame does.
So many community projects poped up on github when the steam deck was released, and people been using proton in third party apps. Hell other distros have their own “steam deck” mode that just boots into big picture mode. I truely think that fex, and the work valve is putting into(or funding) arm64, is going to be more valuable than the steam frame itself. Gamehub app is already using the work valve put in with fex, and arm translation layers you can play red dead on a modern mid range pocco phone at 720p fps. And that’s the exe PC version not the Netflix apk.
Me too. The mobile space is stuck between two dogshit OSes. Gnome is doing good work in this space which is nice to see.
KDE is doing some impressive work lately too
Also good nees :)
Is /e/OS out of date?
Out of date is subjective.
It’s not only the OS itself but the ecosystem. There is no free RCS app on android.
There is no “state of the art” (or even close to it) app for free Banking, Crypto, translation, tax reporting (Germany), car navigation, social hiking/biking/sports, not even public broadcasting, free news apps are lacking features, …
I donate to many apps but it’s not enough. There are amazing people and apps and ecosystems out there but it’s hard to keep up.
No but it is as Linux as Google Android.
Mine just updated today. Its been working out for me and my family for 6ish months now. Cant complain.
Making an operable phone would be (relatively) easy enough. The trouble comes with trying to make it compatible with all the apps and app stores out there, because people expect their phones to be able to download and run various apps that every other phone can. Sometimes they need it to.
The apps are a solved problem. It’s the other way around. Getting a phone or tablet with an soc that has mainline Linux support is hard. It takes forever for all that stuff to settle in mainline and manufacturers will not help.
The apps are far from a solved problem. Otherwise, alternative mobile OSes would not have such a hard time, even if you look beyond mainline Linux. The issue are banking and ID apps, which can work but also may not work.
They can work. They are designed not to. Because there are philosophical differences over what kind of access each should have.
Websites still work. You don’t need an app. You need a bookmark.
I know that the could work. But that is a philosophical distinction if they don’t work. You preach to the wrong guy. I removed all these banking and ID apps from my daily driver because I don’t see why I should put that kind of stuff on my phone to begin with but I am a minority. Banking apps require the app, bookmarks won’t cut it and yes they don’t work because some banks (not all mind you) don’t want them to work which makes no difference to the end user though.
We do need an open security standard and then the only way how we could break out of the duopoly is by the EU forcing companies to use that open standard, at least additionally to the US based solutions. That would break the duopoly.
Plus ~700€, you can get a used foldable Pixel for that price or brand new Pixel with the option of flashing a more secure and trusted OS then Sailfish.
Why don’t they at least try to strike deals with the EU telco companies. This is how many of phones started here.
You can do that but is it so strange to consider that some people out that don’t want Android also don’t want to stuff money into Google for hardware? Also, not everyone’s priority is a hardened phone, some might just want a tinker phone with a terminal and linux environment, that also just works as a phone.
Then install Linneage, Graphene is for those who want security and privacy, if you just want to tinker there’s plenty options.
Though, Graphene agrees with you, that’s why they’re working with Moto to get all their HW requirements in one of their phones, last I heard “2027.”
I was talking about a non-tech duopoly OS that enables you to easily tinker but where tinkering is fully optional. Lineage phones just work as daily driver without the need for tinkering? Which phone hardware exactly would be an option for that with Lineage?
I’m more annoyed that they haven’t responded to any of my attempts to contact them since March
Blatant ragebait
7/10?
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Furiphone also looks promising
Yeayea. Shiftphone is another big promise I think.
PS: Wtf, why did my comment got deleted 😭
isn’t sailfish open source since 2016?
SailfishOS’s underlying system and applications are open source. Jolla has a proprietary UI and android compatibility layer they run on top of it. The UI can be replaced with open source community ones. Its similar to Android in its open source nature.
oh right, it’s the compat thing.
Android compatibility layer is called App Support and is a licensed version of AlienDalvik. It’s only available on officially supported phones (Jolla’s own and some Sony Experia).
They also license it to car manufacturers, which is probably why that bit is not open-source. It’s a big source of income for them.
The automotive OS is a different product called Seafarix marketed through a separate partnership.
Don’t know how it is with this phone but they usually use an Android kernel which means you are beholden to the hardware supplier for device drivers. That generally means that you are stuck with a horribly outdated kernel.
So I tried sailfish os on a volla s23 or 22 I don’t remember the name. and I was kind of underwhelmed by it. I didn’t spend much time there, the community port didn’t support the proprietary software I would of had to use waydroid which I felt like defeated the point. So I am not sure I gave it enough time or a proper chance.
To me sailfish os felt much more like a solid phone experience, but with Ubuntu touch felt much more framiliar, and felt more versatile because of that. Though the experience with Ubuntu touch felt much more like a computer with a horrible gnome interface that is not intuitive, and you never get used to it.
I hear people say a lot of good things about sailfish and I wish I knew what I was looking for, because I was underwhealmed and I really really want a solid Linux phone. Graphene os is cool but in the long run I feel its best to remove ourselves from android, and also a Linux phone is already the perfect cyberdeck so its just cool.
dont have a smart phone. get a land line. write letters. if your job requires you have a cellphone. no you dont, get a new job. or live illegally in a handmade cabin in the woods.
better yet, deny your brain oxygen until you are legally brain dead. that way the government cant read your thoughts.
i would say you can thank me later, but if you follow my advice, you likely wont be able to. so, you’re welcome.
how much is the NSA paying you
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