Those thing aren’t even radical left
Yeah, radical left is more like: Seize the means of production! Abolish capitalism! Abolish patriarchy! Abolish the state!
What’s labelled as radical left in the OP is just bare minimum, common sense policies that any marginally sane person should want.
the radical left boogieman in my current rural small town actually wants all gender neutral bathrooms in schools, with kitty litter boxes in a stall for otherkin. And they will force you to use your own neopronouns, or they will cancel you, and will make you lose your job.
that’s what these people around here really believe the average neolib democrat wants for society.
Probably because “radial left” has no real leg to stand on right now and the big talking points of what the GOP call “radical left” are just this. Exhibit A.
We can theorize about radical left. Meanwhile, radical right is happening in real time.
Thats just leftism. Radical leftist is: kill all landlords, billionaires, politicians, fascists, any one in government before the revolution, ect…
IF YOU ARE NOT AT LEAST ADVOCATING FOR WORKERS CONTROLLING THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION THEN YOU ARE NOT A LEFTIST, YOU ARE LEFT LEANING AT BEST BUT STILL A CENTRIST.
Yap yap.
They are in American political discourse. They are so radical they are completely off the table.
Radical Right: Dismantle democratic elections (to stay in power)
Radical Left: Make elections freer and fairer (to have a say in governance)
Centrists: Let’s meet in the middle and dismantle half of elections once every 4 years, eh?
also, when voters don’t vote for the candidates we force on them, it’s their fault!
It still is.
they forgot about gays and people of colors in video games! /s
The radical part of the dems are the centrist
Yeah where is the Tubular Left and the Gnarly Right.
This leaves out disarming the citizenry, defunding law enforcement, opening the borders, etc. This is a meme so the intentional skewing both makes sense and is tongue in cheek, but judging by the discussions here, there are a lot of people who seem to be taking this too much at face value.
What part of “Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary” is advocating for disarming the citizenry?
You’re so heavily influenced by the right that you don’t even know what the radical left looks like. You’re still talking about liberals.
Advocating for workers controlling the means of production is not radical leftism, its just leftism. Radical would be to seize the means and kill all the billionaires and landlords.
True, but to liberals anyone left of Copmala is a leftist pinko.
I am 100% in agreement, but where in US politics is the left actually following Marx’s view on gun ownership? What percentage of the US Left actually agrees and owns guns? I wish it was a significant percentage, but since Leftist gun culture is generally hidden on top of being a minority the optics indicate a very small percentage.
Blue states are the ones with gun bans, and the Democrat party is the big tent attempting to contain the “far Left”. Just because actual far Leftists don’t agree with it, doesn’t mean either poster in the meme aren’t talking about Republican and Democrat parties.
Hell, look at the next comment on my post to find someone saying disarming the populace is great. I would hazard a guess they would consider themselves to be Left.
You’re still talking about liberals.
Dude, you have no clue.
What about though? Is there a large and thriving Radical Left gun culture that is regularly out in public and on places like YouTube, being vocal, and being proactive like sueing States and Cities for gun bans that I don’t know about? If there is an actual Leftist version of the NRA that I can also support please let me know so I can do so.
I will still be a Capitalism with guardrails and regulations over Communism type of guy, but want to be able to vote for Universal Healthcare, cessation of Corporate power overreach, fair taxation of millionaires and billionaires, etc without also voting against my 2A rights.
You have no clue.
All of those things sound great lol.
I’m sure they do for some people, I was just pointing out that anything without solid widespread appeal with the liberal left and moderates was left out.
Marx is very clear about not disarming the proletariat.
Very true, Marx had very similar reasons as the US founding fathers for the rights of citizens to be armed. I am not deeply emersed in communist/radical leftist spaces to know exactly how the numbers split, but I do know there are at least a significant percentage who believe it to be obsolete reasoning and not applicable to modern society and arms.
Of course you are one of them, right?
The policies you’re calling “radical left” is actually center-left. Every policy listed above are things the center-left wants, but they lack the votes to do it because the “radical left” is “uncommitted” to these issues.
Actual radical left is devoted to hating Jews in general Israel specifically. To the “radical left” most sacrilegious thing anyone can ever do is question whether Israel committed genocide. Or saying that harassing Jews in your own community is antisemitism. What does any of this have to do with the working class? Nothing. But it’s really the only issue the “radical left” actually cares about because they’re mostly university students fantasizing that they’re the working class.
Because of it’s not allowed to have sane conversations about Israel or call out antisemitism within the ranks, most people don’t want to associate with you. The DSA does have some people that care about issues around healthcare, but within the same group there’s people that want to kill all Jews, and no one in the DSA says peep about it. Instead the goal is to silence all discussion on the problem of antisemitism in the group.
You pretend that there’s some conspiracy to against the radical left (by you know who) but really there’s too many people in the ranks that are deplorable and the rest just look the other way about it.
Both the radical right and radical left are hate groups. They only slightly differ on the targets of their hate and the terminology they use.
misrepresent what my opponent believes
categorize them all as bigots
call them all antiseptic for criticizing a government and it’s political ideology
Better luck next time, you Zionist fuckin’ clown.
You can’t discuss what I say so you resort to throwing childish insults.
It’s all you can do because you know what I’m saying is true.
You are being a scum and you scums deserve to be insulted
You really can’t form a cohesive argument at all, can you?
You are accuding anti genocide colonization people of being antisemite. You are a scum and you deserve to be insulted
As an FYI, this comment has been reported. As Mod, I’m going to let it stay up as the downvotes speak louder to me than the rhetoric, but I feel like Op’s approach to debate is troublesome.
Personally I’d note,
Actual radical left is devoted to hating Jews in general Israel specifically.
Please try to avoid such sweeping generalizations when debating with people online (or anywhere else). “Devoted to hating Jews” is such a wild comment to me that I feel like it’s barely serious. If you actually believe that, you need to talk with more people on the “radical left”, or, you need to understand that the radical left is much bigger than those who inspired that comment.
Please remove. Those zionists will never learn
How about for now I won’t remove, but I’ll upvote you anyway?
#compromise?
I mean removing zionists propaganda
I’ll leave it for now, as the downvotes speak pretty loudly and they’re not being aggressively hostile, more just denunciatory and projecting stereotypes.
Downvotes do not do anything on Lemmy. Allowing zionists to spread their propaganda allows them to multiply and become more vocal. I can’t think of anything more hostile then accusing every leftist of wanting to kill all jews
I’d argue that downvotes display community consensus; and clearly they aren’t being received with delight or agreement in this thread, or the larger sub.
I’d further argue that if this is propaganda, it’s quite poorly crafted, and the community seems to have noticed. A more efficient form of propaganda would include far fewer obvious fallacies, for instance.
I agree that their statements are highly problematic and I’ve specifically engaged with them on those issues. Their answers, if forthcoming, will be illustrative of their ability to honestly interact with others within this community, and I’ll respond appropriately. I’m sorry if this isn’t as aggressive an approach as you’d prefer; but this approach is not binding and will be tempered by further data.
Of course you did. Leftism is currently very devoted to looking the other way about issues of antisemitism within your movement. You don’t want to consider that there is a very valid reason for leftism to be rejected.
It would be very easy to denounce Hamas, and denounce attacking synagogues. Make it very clear that leftism isn’t about these things. But leftists won’t do that, why?
Rule on the sidebar says:
We must not be divided and conquered. Workers gain the most when they focus on unifying issues.
You’re in the paradox of tolerance. If you tolerate antisemitism, then you’re in an intolerant group. The goal of anti-zionist rhetoric has nothing to do with unionizing or labour rights. It’s entirely about creating division and turning people against one another.
How much discussion on here is actually about unionizing and improving working conditions? I would love for there to be a community about that, since I support forming unions. But your community is mostly about bashing Jews and bashing Democrats. It’s not about building coalitions with those sympathetic towards the rights of workers, it’s about attacking anyone that’s not onboard with one side in the propaganda surrounding a conflict on the other side of the world.
You shouldn’t expect there will be broad support for a group that tolerates antisemitism. Trying to sweep the problem under the rug and pretend the problem doesn’t exist isn’t making it better. Attacks on synagogues continue to increase. People outside of leftist circles see the antisemitic comments by people in your group. It’s also noted that there is no one in the leftist sphere that ever speaks out against it.
It’s your choice whether to ban comments that bring up the issue, but that is you choosing ban discussion on a very real problem in your movement. There’s a long history of people looking the other way on antisemitism that you’d be joining.
issues of antisemitism within your movement.
I don’t have a movement. I am not involved in any movement. I am not a “leftist”. I am a human being and I promise you that I do not fit most of the descriptions that you are placing upon me in terms of both my attitudes and my beliefs.
People outside of leftist circles see the antisemitic comments by people in your group.
I don’t know know who is making what comments where that I should be condemning. I’m barely on social media at all and I do not ordinarily participate on internet discussion boards. I have no groups. I’m generally disinclined towards grouping as a concept, sorry.
I understand your overall social critique and the recognize the truth and value of many of your assertions, however your presentation may be interpreted. Unfortunately I am not the one you should be venting these critiques upon, and I am not answerable to social trends, cultural dynamics, historical happenstance, and religious tensions and intercessions that predate my ancestors’ ancentors.
Lemmy lives or dies by its userbase. You are also part of our shared userbase. I am the mod of one small community, only, and I am doing my best. If you have specific concerns with specific actions I take, I will address them.
I came to Lemmy mostly to shitpost, as an alternative to Reddit. I think this place can be wonderful if we let it. But let’s stay on topic.
If you see a post that you don’t think relates to Work Reform, downvote it. Try and post similar content yourself. Encourage discussion about unions, inequality, and how corporations are strangling the world.
Be the kind of person you want to meet on Lemmy.
But for you, @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca - please stop accusing me of things I don’t believe as parts of movements I don’t subscribe to. I’m not your enemy, I’m just some guy at the corner store buying a white claw because I’m cutting back on carbs
You hate jews so much that you associate them to a colonial and genocidal state
No, I recognize the distinction between Jews in Israel and the Jews that live in my community. “Leftists” threaten the Jews that live in my community and I’m not a big fan of that. Leftism in general is incapable of denouncing this kind of behavior. Which makes you deplorable to anyone that cares about their community.
This is why your movement is a failure. Y’all dabbled in hate politics and now it’s taken over your movement.
Leftists are literally taking over the extremist centrists who support genocide and most leftists do not hste jews stop generalizing.
There are some jews who want all Palestinians exterminated too but unlike scum like you I don’t generalize
Centrist: a right winger that doesn’t want to face the realities of either situation.
A lot of centrists, are frankly, kind of weak minded. A lot are not necessarily more right leaning but they don’t exactly have strong conviction. A friend of mine is right leaning on immigration and economics but at the same time he voted for the social democrats in his country because of over a decade of right wing government and supports Palestine. Some are centrists for the sake of being centrist it seems.
The problem as to why many centrists sound right leaning is because the right captured prominent media platforms, and a huge part of its audience are lonely folks who are susceptible to misinformation, which my friend falls into. Many don’t become firmly on right but that doesn’t matter for the right wing billionaires funding the media platforms. It’s about sowing enough doubt to prevent forming a united front against the billionaire-Epstein class.
your a centrest because your scared of taking a stance on most important questions of the current moment
I’m a centrist because I don’t know anything about the most important questions of the current moment
We are sort of the same
Encouraging people to find and listen to independent news media is one of the more effective things you can do for the resistance.
By the way, you should add more independent news media to your news diet.
Also, generally, if something makes you scared or mad, go online and look for other sources discussing the same story. It’ll not only provide nuance, but it’ll reveal what’s fact, and what is opinion or assertion.
I don’t think you have a left in the US. You have far right and center right. In Germany it’s like you had only AfD and CDU and that’s it.
I mean it’s still obvious which choice is better but none of them is left.
From the 20th century, we have the ideological war against USSR to thank for that. It started all the way back with Wilson. After WWII, the threat of nuclear annihilation was a powerful tool for nationalism. (I’d learn only recently that a first strike was far more likely to come from US than USSR, and we had some dangerous war hawks in power.)
Before that, after reconstruction came redemption and corporate interests took over both parties.
Before that, roads, schools, bridges, libraries and such were socialism giving the working man benefits to which they didn’t contribute (we just contributed all the labor). Yes, they called it socialism even back in the 19th century.
Do observe that adherence to neoliberalism in the EU (which is essentially corporatism with extra steps) is driving the rise of far right movements even over there. And when the tech-bros and white Christian nationalists over here are done bleeding the US dry like its private equity, they’ll be headed over there with their vast wealth to do the same thing.
You can go back further than that.
The 1917 russian revolution kicked it off. The fear of a workers revolution happening in the US started a campaign of labelling everything socialist and communist as anti-american.
even before then . . . the US has one of the bloodiest labor histories in the world. So to hide that, even in the 19th century US capitalists started claiming that socialism and unions were unamerican, and the work of subversive radicals, especially Germans and Jews.
We don’t have a large, cohesive, left party. There are people who are certainly left in the USA, but we have no real representation out of a handful of congress people.
Americans think universal healthcare is leftist.
it takes power from private companies and puts it into the hands of the government, which sounds pretty leftist to me.
What is state capitalism, Alex.
American 2 party system is so fucked that anything left of rabid, far right fascism is considered far left
Isn’t Die Linke gaining ground on the polls though?
Somewhat, yes. Whatever votes they get, they mostly take over from SPD and Greens, though. All three of those parties moved to the right significantly, so even if there is a majority for the three of them together some day and if (the bigger one) SPD and Greens enter into a coalition with Die Linke, my impression is that it won’t be that different from the SPD/Greens coalition at the turn of the century or the SPD/Greens/Liberals coalition in the past election cycle: center-left at best, but far from substantial improvements to our economy, social security system or imperialist foreign policy. :(
I always considered myself a centrist. Of course, over the last 15 years the one side has become so damn batshit crazy it looks like I’m a party line voter simply based on my voting record.
I’m sure you mean the far left ultra radical anti-American tankie-sexuals, right?
I really don’t trust models that assert that tankies are on the left.
Left wing politics is about distributing political power as widely and evenly as possible. Tankies are authoritarians who like autocracy brutally enforced. That’s the opposite.
Vanishingly few people who use the term know what it means, who invented it, or why it’s currently in circulation.
It’s just a pejorative now. More often than not used to tell anti-war activists to shut up, because being anti-war is no different than surrendering to The Evil People.
STOP MAKING ME CHOOSE
says Threads account run by a DC corporate think tank.
Why do I have to choose between the radical left and the radical right?
What if I’m a male xenophobic racist who wants women to exist as sex toys to men and have no rights of their own and supports killing random civilians and children in other countries, especially when it grows in to genocide, but also wants a good life for the common male workers of the country, universal healthcare, and a sustainable climate?
I want that universal health care and education, I want more affordable homes and such, but I also want to see goon squads in the street beating brown people with batons as often as possible because it makes me laugh. Why can’t I have both?
i knew people in university who probably actually thought this way.
Sadly if you just look at the last paragraph and replace the brown people bit with whoever a person feels justified to hate it seems like most people think something along these lines.
People who still buy Harry Potter books or merchandise? Republicans? People from cultures where homosexuality is considered wrong who honestly speak about their own views?
I think many of the loving tolerant folk of the internet would be thrilled with a world of universal health care, education, affordable homes, and seeing some or all of those people beaten in the streets.
you can probably get 90% approval by having it be pedophiles getting beaten in the street, but society isn’t ready for that conversation
We need some police. Just some.
But not these ones, better ones.
Social workers? Yes. Police as we know them? Nope. Proper education and mental health services will solve 99% of the problems. Most crime is unresolved personal issues and taking care of people will take care of the problems.
people that steal cars are one of the best uses for the current police, and if the police actually faced proper punishment for not kamikazing into mass shooters that would be another great use
Just enough to kill the untermenchen and keep people from objecting to my atrocities where I can hear. That’s such a reasonable thing I don’t know why they’re complaining there are too many.
center is bullshit. You’re the center for your view
Is that really Alison rosen now? Or was she joking herself? Stupid screenshot culture and no link…
