Page not found – Rust in Peace
blogs.gnome.org

This is a truly WTF moment about messed up responses to X11 session removal in Gnome.

2 weeks ago I published a blogpost about the upcoming plans of GNOME 49 and the eventual removal of the X11 session. Since then, instead of looking at feedback, bugs and issues related to the topic, we all collectively had to deal with the following, and I am not exaggerating one bit:

  • Fascists and Nazis
  • Wild Conspiracy Theories that make Qanon jealous
  • “Concerned” Trolling about the Accessibility of the Wayland session
  • A culture war where Wayland is Gay, and X11 is the glorious past they stole from you

In my wildest dreams I could have never made this shit up. You all need mandatory supervised access to the Internet from now on.

  • fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.comEnglish
    38·
    3 days ago

    There is no place for Fascists within the Open Source and Free Software communities or the society at large. You will never fester your poisonous roots here

    So who took the blog post down at Gnome?

  • tfmA
    3·
    2 days ago

    The link is broken, unfortunately

  • the_wiz@feddit.org
    511·
    3 days ago

    X11 AND Wayland are for degenerates, a distraction at best but mostly just something that wastes CPU cycles and RAM.

    THE FUTURE IS TERMINAL!

      • the_wiz@feddit.org
        6·
        3 days ago

        Thank you for this new rabbit hole that thanks to my pathological curiosity for software on the far side of normalcy i now HAVE to explore and waste time i should spend working on a project 😜

        • pfr@lemmy.sdf.org
          4·
          3 days ago

          Oh, your welcome. It’s a great rabbit hole. I remember venturing down it for the first time some years ago. I’ve since been able to build arcan from source and get pipeworld working on void linux. It’s not daily drivable yet, (not for me at least) but it works, and it’s cool as fuck.

          • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
            1·
            2 days ago

            Gotta say, his latest post, Sunsetting Cursed Terminal Emulation, really reminded me of some programming woes you can read from The Unix Haters’ Handbook.

            terminal emulators aren’t leaky abstractions, they’re quite literally the abstraction being leaked :-D.
            \x64k@lobste.rs

      • lime!@feddit.nuEnglish
        1·
        3 days ago

        YES! i would love it if arcan/durden/lash-cat9 got some mainstream traction.

      • tal@lemmy.todayEnglish
        3·
        2 days ago

        I have been known to use XMODEM over screen over telnet for file transfer.

  • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    324·
    3 days ago

    I do think ditching X11 is still slightly premature. For all its more modern features, there’s still a lot that Wayland either hasn’t implemented yet or “can’t do” because of its “security model.”

    • XenGi@feddit.orgEnglish
      52·
      3 days ago

      Can you name something that’s missing? Because I can’t think of anything relevant.

          • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            2·
            2 days ago

            It’s roughly equivalent to AutoHotKey on Windows. It’s an application that can intercept key combos or even typed strings and…do basically anything. Let’s say you type a certain phrase a lot, you could come up with an abbreviation so that when you type an abbreviation it deletes the abbreviation and inserts the big thing you type. Or maybe you want it to fire when you press ALT+ y. Or, maybe you want it to do something programmatic, like insert the date and time. Or do anything you can get Python to do.

            This apparently does not work on Wayland systems, something about the way it accessed keystrokes in X11 isn’t open in Wayland for security concerns.

            • XenGi@feddit.orgEnglish
              5·
              2 days ago

              Honestly that sounds like a security nightmare and its probably a good thing that doesn’t work anymore.

              • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
                11·
                1 day ago

                Honestly if pressing some buttons to get the computer to do something you programmed it to do is a “security nightmare” I think we should probably just give up, tear down the electric grid and go back to dying of smallpox at 17 like nature intended.

            • hoppolito@mander.xyzEnglish
              4·
              2 days ago

              I don’t know autokey, so I can’t speak to whether they replace all its functionality but there are ‘xdotool-like’ programs for Wayland. So it is at least very possible to replace functionality like the latter you mentioned (press button/button combination -> do an action, like inserting date/start a program/do something programmatic). Some examples I know are:

      • swelter_spark@reddthat.comEnglish
        94·
        2 days ago

        I"ve been experimenting with both Cosmos and XFCE Wayland.

        Color pickers, screenshot, and window recording/streaming all don’t seem to work or require Wayland-only packages that are extremely primitive in features and use.

        Alt+tabbing out of games, whether fullscreen or windowed, also doesn’t seem to work.

        Wallpapers and cursors installed to the standard location where the distro installs all of them don’t seem to be usable. I have to manually copy them to somewhere in the home directory in order to use them.

        Screensavers seem to be unusable except for one port of xscreensavers.

        I know OpenSUSE plans to eliminate x11, so I’m trying to get used to Wayland, but I do hope it’s more developed before I have to use it full time.

        • TheGrandNagus@lemmy.worldEnglish
          3·
          1 day ago

          I"ve been experimenting with both Cosmos [I’m assuming you mean Cosmic, System76’s upcoming DE?] and XFCE Wayland.

          So the only Wayland implementations you’ve tried are ones in Alpha or Beta?

          Tbh that seems like an unfair comparison. You’re comparing alpha and beta software to production-ready software, and complaining about it not being as stable.

          Wayland is a lot more mature on Gnome or Plasma. I started using Wayland on Gnome in 2019, and aside from when I briefly tested with an Nvidia card a number of years ago, the only issue I’ve ever had was screen sharing on discord, which was ‘Discord are pathologically against updating their electron version’ issue, not a Wayland issue.

        • 90s_hacker@reddthat.com
          7·
          2 days ago

          tbf, aren’t both of those still in early stages? I don’t think I’ve had any issues with those on KDE wayland

      • Feathercrown@lemmy.worldEnglish
        71·
        2 days ago

        Do we have a widely adopted aolution yet for screensharing, global shortcuts, and window position restoration?

        • XenGi@feddit.orgEnglish
          8·
          2 days ago

          Screen sharing under gnome and KDE just works. Even in sway that’s solved for quite a while now. I would call that widely adopted. I haven’t encountered the other two as problems yet. Global shortcuts work in my sway session. I would expect nothing else from gnome and KDE. Window position restoration is also a standard feature in sway AFAIK. Not sure if gnome or KDE do it.

  • CodexArcanum@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    818·
    3 days ago

    There is no place for Fascists within the Open Source and Free Software communities or the society at large. You will never fester your poisonous roots here. Go back to the cave you crawled out from where no sunlight can reach.

    NAZI! DEVS! FUCK! OFF! 💯

  • M. Orange@beehaw.org
    7·
    2 days ago

    On the one hand, the guy who wrote this blog post is kinda unhinged.

    On the other hand, I’m kinda living for it and agree with his views.

    So really it all evens out in the end.

  • trevor (he/they)@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
    1236·
    4 days ago

    This probably has a lot to do with the new DOA XServer fork being “anti-DEI” (pro-discrimination). When these slimy shitweasels go out and vice signal about how bigoted they are, they congregate around it and form a new harassment campagin because they have no life.

    Sorry you’re getting harassed. I hope you can take solace in the fact that these little pissbabies lead miserable lives.

    • LiveLM@lemmy.zipEnglish
      30·
      3 days ago

      Can confirm, having my different refresh rate monitors play nice with each other is extremely homosexual.

    • Phoenixz@lemmy.ca
      111·
      3 days ago

      … Does this imply that Wayland has a penis?

      Asking… For science, or something, I dunno what is going on.

    • Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee
      5·
      3 days ago

      X11 is on/under your ass?
      Maybe they were both gay all along, that’s why we enjoy their sessions so much.

  • CoyoteFacts@piefed.caEnglish
    501·
    4 days ago

    As a commenter on that post says, this sort of talk is also common in the comments of Phoronix articles. The commenter says they’ve completely stopped supporting Phoronix since it’s clear that Michael enables this behavior by not moderating it (the least he could do is disable commenting; the type of people that are in the Phoronix comments are the absolute worst). It’s been festering for a very long time, unfortunately. Click any Phoronix article that’s older than a day and check the negativity. Worse, click an article about a controversial topic like X11/Wayland/Systemd/bcachefs/KDE/GNOME/etc. and it’s just a shitshow.

    I’ve been seeing it to a lesser degree here as well. I don’t know what it is about X11 that really riles up the conspiracy theorists.

    • Feyd@programming.dev
      25·
      3 days ago

      YES. Phoronix articles are good but the comment sections are insane. There are a few very vocal users that would have been banned on any reasonably moderated forum, and they largely chase out the reasonable people.

      Also, occasionally there is an article about CoC or something that is obviously going to bring the loonies out of the woodwork. The comment section will get closed, but not until after the giant flamewar has gone on for a bit. Michael has to know that’s going to happen and make the decision not to close it immediately when he makes the post.

    • Maiq@lemy.lol
      6·
      3 days ago

      The only thing I miss about X11 is xscreensaver. I hope the dev makes a port for wayland one day. I dont care if it ever has screen locking, i just want bouncing cows.

  • potatoguy@potato-guy.space
    5212·
    4 days ago

    All these “concerned” comments about systemd, wayland, etc, always seemed dog whistling to me. I have critiques about these projects, but the specific things this specific type of people says always comes coded in some form of racism/transphobic/mysoginistic rethoric. Just changed from gamergate to linuxgate.

    So i’m not surprised that they turned mask off like this.

    Look at any anti-systemd channel, the comments are always the worst thing ever. Some lkml reading channels have these comments too.

    • cubism_pitta@lemmy.world
      344·
      3 days ago

      The systemd and the Wayland debate both feel very similar.

      At the end of the day the old method of using init scripts was becoming inadequate and needed to change

      Wayland debate seems the same, switching to Wayland has been talked about for over a decade. The change has been coming and frankly I was expecting it a lot earlier

      Whats neat about linux though is if you have nothing better to do and are knowledgeable enough to removed about all of this; then you also have the technical prowess to standup an install of your favorite distro and get it to use X instead of Wayland and init scripts instead of systemd

      For me as an enduser I hope Wayland enables more modern features to be delivered more easily as X has felt old for a while.

    • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
      24·
      3 days ago

      I’m just confused. Like, how would someone even connect Linux software to those topics?
      I totally believe you that they do, and I’m not actually interested in hearing messed up shit, I’m just…

      If you asked me which topics were unlikely to have bizarre vile messaging I would have listed window managers and init systems pretty high in the list.

      • Telorand@reddthat.com
        303·
        3 days ago

        You need to think of the kind of people that are interested in nerdy computing topics. Regular people that just want to make something nice to share with the world, sure, but also incels, toxic masculinity proponents, etc.

        They’re mostly able to hide, because like you point out, computer science and related topics are mostly apolitical; when you make scary changes, however, those same latter people can’t help themselves but to blame the villainous “They.”

        • someacnt@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          1·
          2 days ago

          I am definitionally incel, wanna say that does not make me a nazi. In fact, I despise the entire tenets of nazism.

          • Telorand@reddthat.com
            3·
            2 days ago

            Incel means more than the state of not being in a relationship, these days. Some very sad and terrible people turned it into a subculture that revolves around imaginary grievances directed at women.

            • someacnt@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
              1·
              2 days ago

              That’s a pity, I guess some people direct their grudge to women instead of the faulty society which forced no-life lifestyle…

        • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
          101·
          3 days ago

          Ugh. people can suck sometimes. I can comprehend the concept of bigotry and all that, but it just deeply does not make sense to me. And I think I’m ultimately okay with not being able to empathize with actual hatred.

          • Telorand@reddthat.com
            11·
            3 days ago

            It makes me sad that some of the “nerdy” people in these spaces would join with the very people that would gladly throw them under the bus or use them as minority fodder, but as I’ve seen with experts in science, high intelligence in one area doesn’t mean you are capable of critical thinking.

            ETA: to be clear, I’m not saying we should ignore scientists and experts, just that specialized expertise ≠ general expertise.

            • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
              6·
              3 days ago

              The two people I trust least on matters of science are some person who reckons it’s common sense and someone with a doctorate in something vaguely similar.

              The third and fourth are every engineer and every physician that isn’t actually an expert on the thing, but that’s because we think we know everything.

      • lime!@feddit.nuEnglish
        3·
        3 days ago

        it’s always been there. the most influential voices in the open source software world have always been overtly political. heck, the entire movement is inherently political. just read any of stallmans or raymond’s rants from the 90s.

        and while stallman is mostly just creepy because he’s not house trained, raymond is genuinely disturbing.

        • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
          5·
          2 days ago

          Oh, I totally know there’s been a lot of politics in the Foss community and that some of the people are nasty, I’m just flabbergasted that someone would try to connect such disparate things.
          I can comprehend a Nazi Foss enthusiast having opinions on race and on window managers. It’s when they start having racist opinions on window managers that it all flies out the window. It’s like being opposed to copper plumbing because it’s too Norwegian.

          Just a case of seeing irrational people who act irrationally act irrationally in a new way and being shocked that the irrationality doesn’t follow a pattern or stay in topic.