Even worse in my book is Moses and the plagues.
Like, WTF God? Pharaoh is the absolute ruler of Egypt. His word is law. This is a man that can and regularly does have people executed with a single word. That’s the level of authority Pharaoh has.
And yet, who does God choose to take out his wrath on? The completely innocent and powerless civilian population of Egypt! People with absolutely zero say in how their government is run. THEY are the ones who have to pay the price for Pharaoh’s pride. Why the fuck isn’t Pharaoh the one paying that price? He’s the evil bastard running the whole place.
Want me to free the enslaved Israelites? I can do so with far less effort and far fewer casualties. Here’s what my Moses’s speech to Pharaoh looks like:
Sorry about this, but I’m here to deliver a message. God says to let his people go. If you don’t, you will suffer an increasing number of injuries and sicknesses until you die. The first week you’ll have a cold. The next week you’ll have the flu. The next week you’ll break your legs. The week after that your arms. Finally forty days from now you’ll just have a heart attack and die. The same series of events will happen to your successor, and any further successors until you agree to God’s terms. Please don’t take this out on me. I’m just a messenger. God said he would kill me too if I didn’t deliver the message. I didn’t believe him at first either; that’s why my legs are in casts.
There. Why is that so hard? One man holds all the power. THAT is the man you should be punishing. Give him some chances, change is hard, sure. But ultimately he’s the one responsible. I don’t know how many Pharaoh’s we’ll have to burst before the Israelites are free, but I can’t imagine it would be more than a half dozen. And the only ones that need to suffer and die are the ones refusing to release the slaves! (Though I suppose in this version Moses is sick for a few weeks and had to break his legs.)
The Flood is probably the most absurd/comical aspect of Christianity to me. It just doesn’t work on so many demonstrable levels.
It’s impossible on an engineering level.
It’s impossible on an archaeological level.
It’s impossible on a natural level.
It is completely impossible.
Sounds like a lack of faith to me.
It doesn’t have to make sense, in fact, the less sense it makes, the better, as it just tests your faith more.
Believing something because of evidence or logic is not a demonstration of faith. The faithful believe it happened, not because of evidence, but because they were told it did and that they should be faithful to their teachings
Mac? Is that you?
Why didn’t god make the ark himself? Why didn’t god just smite only the people he thought were fucked up? Why did he basically do the same shit twice (the first time being saving Lot’s family and destroying Soddam and Gomorrah)?
Because it’s fiction written by multiple authors sometimes hundreds of years apart.
I found it funny that no kangaroos were mentioned, because Australia hadn’t been discovered at that time.
Noah: “WTF is that?!”
God: “Something called a gorilla. They’re pretty cool, but no need to mention them ever.”
Noah: but what about all of the paramecia?
God: The what now?
Noah: never mind.
The flood’s just ripped off from Gilgamesh. Most of Genesis is just plagerised tales from ancient Mesopotamia.
That’s because the flood likely actually happened. As a result of global warming.
Only that time, humans didn’t cause global warming, and therefore it wasn’t a punishment for our sins. This time though…
Nah. Every time the world’s flooded from a warmer climate, it lasts minimum a few thousand years. The cycles are sloooow.
No. When reservoirs burst, you had sudden flooding events.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041220010147.htm
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322797000078
My favorite theory is that it’s a myth from when the Bosporus opened and flooded the Black Sea.
Ending up near mount ararat would make sense.
For the Levant, I like the idea that the Noachian flood came from the Mediterranean flooding.
We might be talking about the same thing, I got some reading to do.
Humans had barely branched from chimps when the Med flooded, so I doubt the oral history.
Don’t try to apply logic like that, there is no logic.
It’s more likely to be a myth based on merely a heavy shower that became exaggerated over time.
The only truth to the Bible is like Harry potter was at a train station that actually exist in London. That does not make Harry Potter based on reality. In the same way some commonly known things in the Bible actually existed. But everything else is made up 100%.Remember the Ark also had unicorns!
Yes a rainy day exist, but that’s about it.A large part of the Biblical version is a copy-paste of the Sumerian myth (like a lot of the mythological parts of the Bible), which was only centered on the area of the city of Shuruppak. And we know that there were a few big events of the Euphrates flooding severely (Mesopotamian floods are a lot more destructive and unpredictable than the Niles), and one flood event in particular, dated around 2900 BCE, largely destroyed Shuruppak and a couple other cities in the area (they got better).
The Black Sea deluge hypothesis is popular but that rise was spread over a few thousand years, there was no sudden flood, no one was surprised.
There have been several mega-floods throughout history that wiped out regions basically as big as human civilizations traded at the time. They were caused by various fallout from the ice age ending. Even some in North America. These are MASSIVE, once every ice age types of events. Humans didn’t manage to keep much between ice ages, and that’s if you take the evidence that humans have even existed as homo sapiens that long.
One example is the Bonneville floods. Thousands of years of erosion in days’ time. There is evidence for another similar event up by Washington. That’s just two, in close proximity geographically. There is similar evidence over in that region of biblically sized floods. Floods that would put any weather related floods to shame by several orders of magnitude.
It’s probably just a corrupted story of one of those events, corrupted into that one story of a rancher basically doing exactly the story of Noah (minus all the preaching and grand-standing) for his ranch, for one of those smaller once a thousand years type floods.
If there’s one thing we know it’s not, it’s those kinds of floods, because those you talk about come from Ice Age and giant glaciers sliding or breaking down giant lakes. There was none of those in the Middle East when humans existed, not in Mesopotamia which is a giant flat plain, and that’s where those stories came. We know the biblical account is a copy of the Sumerian account, and we know what event the Sumerian account comes from. It’s not an Ice Age story, and it doesn’t come from an earlier, older memory from WAY further North. The closest event to that is indeed the Black Sea expansion that happened at the end of that period, and we know that one took a few thousand years.
lol no. There were several megafloods in the middle east. Your ignorance is proof of nothing.
I bet the people that wrote the Bible had no knowledge of those events.
The period of the Babylonian captivity, when they were brought to Babylon as prisoners and stayed several decades through the 6th c. BCE before being freed by Cyrus II, is likely a point where they brought a lot of Babylonian culture back to Jerusalem. Plus, the god of the Bible comes from two origins, Yahweh and El, the latter being a storm god that had a lot of cultural osmosis in the entire second millennium BCE, being associated with Enlil and Baal, through whom the Sumerian and Akkadian stories did get around. So there’s definitely a part where some of those stories made their way into Canaanite culture by themselves, then the Hebrews and Jews, naturally over several centuries to become their own ancestral culture, and a part where the Jews brought back and adopted Babylonian stories when they returned from the exile. We can tell because of the narrative / writing style and the variations that we can find, we can date when some of those stories appeared.
In the case of the Flood story, the text has too many similarities, identical lines, to not be straight up copy-pasted from Babylonian texts after the exile - but even then, there’s a couple variations of the Biblical story that does suggest they already had a memory of that story in their own culture (40 days or 7 days, that sort of details). It’s fairly likely that they simply considered that those stories were about the same god as their El, in the same way the Greeks would go “oh, you have a god of thunder too? I bet his name is Zeus. I like your story about Zeus.” And really, they’re not wrong, since they do have the same origin, they are in fact the same god, branching into many cultures across Mesopotamia over a couple millennia.
So no, they definitely didn’t know anything about the actual event that inspired the deluge story (you can tell by how it’s all an abstract threat to them, because the Jordan river doesn’t flood anything like the Euphrates, compared to the real threat and pain of exile), but they knew about the story of the deluge.
Thanks very informative. I still believe you can analyze this shit to hell, and all you end up with is no actual knowledge of what the fuck is true or false. They are basing it on stories passed down through generations without knowing if they are true or merely allegories. When they turn out to be actually true, it is more coincidence than anything else.
That’s why I don’t really care if there was some event that was the basis for the stories in the Bible, because it’¨s irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the superstition surrounding it, not the truth of it.
Yeah but it’s fun and fun is more fun than logic. Especially with inconsequential bullshit like this.
Now if you’ll excuse me I’m having a deep conversation with a blue jay which logically can’t happen but I’m gonna to enjoy it anyway.
Especially with inconsequential bullshit like this.
I wish it was inconsequential. Grown adults believe this nonsense is literally true, and they vote.
I’m a grown adult who talks to birds and I vote.
Your conversation with that bird is more real that anything in that book.
Except for that time all those kids got eaten by that bear that shit was lit.
I bet the tales of genocide in the Old Testament happened, too.
A bit less lit, though
No, there IS logic. No matter how silly religious goons are, NEVER dismiss anthropology.
These might be corrupted stories, but they have been carried down through history. To completely dismiss it just because some fools take allegory literally is to choose ignorance of human history.
Or just disregarding superstition without evidence.
You can disregard all of the superstitious beliefs people derive from it and still see it for the epic from history that it is. Just like people still read and study the Epic of Gilgamesh without believing all the fantasy aspects. Or Greek mythology, etc.
You don’t have to believe the superstitions to never the less be able to find great anthropological value.
You can disregard all of the superstitious beliefs people derive from it and still see it for the epic from history that it is.
That’s like trying to learn about London by reading Harry Potter.
No you can’t, because nothing in the Bible is trustworthy, the Bible is not a historically accurate document.There is no platform 9 3/4 in the Kings Cross railway station, despite the clear description of it in Harry Potter, and in the exact same way the historical descriptions of the bible are highly unreliable. So any truth value has to be determined from other sources than the bible. Which means the bible is irrelevant even detrimental for such studies.
You can read the bible as a book of fiction nothing more.
lol OK just ignore most of how history is studied then… Genuinely ignorant attitude you have. Pathetic.
Why didn’t god just smite only the people he thought were fucked up?
In the story sin was so widespread that Noah and his family were basically the only ones left that were free from sin. And if you see sin as a cancer spreading and rapidly taking over, it’s easier to euthanize and begin anew. One could imagine that if the world was allowed to keep going then sin would only get worse and humanity would just keep getting more and more depraved and miserable. Now god as an omnipotent being should have been able to predict all of this, which is a giant plot hole in the story. But despite that I don’t think it’s too unreasonable. It’s like if you built a rabbit house but it turns out all the rabbits (except a couple) get rabies and all start biting each other. Better to euthanize everyone and start over.
Why did he basically do the same shit twice (the first time being saving Lot’s family and destroying Soddam and Gomorrah)?
Well there it was extremely clear that Sodom and Gomorrah did not have a single non sinner left. That’s kind of the main plot point in that story. Abraham tries to save the cities by negotiating with god that if he finds just 50 righteous people god won’t destroy the cities. This is negotiated down and down until god promises that he will save the cities if just 10 righteous persons are found. Abraham finds no one except for Lots family hence the cities are destroyed, after Lot and his family were rescued.
it’s easier
If you’re all powerful, no it’s not.
Bad argument. If God is omnipotent, then “easier” isn’t a concept, it has no bearing on his actions whatsoever. If he is who he says he is, then he can and will do whatever is best in light of eternity. In the case of the flood (and the entire old testament really), it’s all foreshadowing to Christ.
God can be all powerful and lazy at the same time. I know I would be lazy if I were a god.
There is no such thing as lazy when you are infinite. That’s not how infinites work. All things are equally difficult and are as difficult as nothing.
That’s not true. There are literally infinities that are infinitely bigger than other infinities. Mathematically. Some of these actually show up in how physics equations ended up being constructed. It’s actually quite fascinating.
Though the God of the Bible as Christians believe is… definitely an incongruent mess.
That’s what I tell myself when I want a snack but am already comfortable in my spot.
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Do gods, or the god need moral justification? That’s not demonstrated much in the Bible afaik.
If they want to be called “absolutely good” and claim being the one perfect justice, being moral would not be wrong…
Maybe they don’t care what we call them? And I don’t think there is a moral singularity; morality depends on perspective.
Noah and his family were basically the only ones left that were free from sin
What about the Original Sin? I thought we are all sinners, no matter what?
And his whole family just happened to be great, while every single other person was terrible? Guess there were no ‘black sheep’ in Noah’s family, huh?
Appreciate the insight based on the lore! You have a negative score at the time of my reply, but you make good points based the book(s)! Upvote from this agnostic!
I think the actual Biblical answer is that animals don’t have true souls like humans. They have a different, lesser souls, like plants, which is why it’s not a sin to kill and eat them. So, God killing all the animals is like chopping down a tree that might to fall on your house: sad, but sometimes necessary.
But that bitch gave us dominion over them. Typically micromanaging corporate bullshit.
Well, he was laying off most of our department at the time, so I guess it makes sense that he would be taking on some of our duties.
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Because the non-human animals are irrelevant. Christianity is centered around the idea that humans are above nature.
This is true. A very Christian coworker of mine told me that god put animals(as well as plants and the rest of the earth) here for us to use as we wish. He liked to kill animals(hunt) just to blow off steam. Crows were one of his favorites because, “They’re always in season”.
He also once told me the earth is six thousand years old and I laughed in his face, thinking he was kidding around. When he assured me he was not kidding I told him I’ve never before met someone stupid enough to believe that shit.
I’m certain he ended up being a MAGA.
Crows … always in season".
Know what else is also always in season? Crow hunters. The hard part is finding them.
As a Christian, absolutely not true. Anyone who thinks this, IMO, doesn’t understand the argument they’re making. If they actually studied the Bible, they would see that God clearly meant for humanity to be stewards of his creation. Maybe a bit harsh, but I have strong feelings about this.
It should be noted that Noah and the Ark came from the Old Testament, before Christianity was ever a thing. In this case, it’s the Abrahamic religions you have issue with, in addition to Christianity. 😊
And they stole it from the Epic of Gilgamesh
That was in the Old Testament We don’t read the shit in the Old Testament I’m not even sure why it’s still in print But that’s the dickish god from the Old Testament
Sure, he told you how to keep them slaves And yes, he commanded you to kidnap babes Only one small tribe were his personal faves But no one worships the god from the Old Testament Do they?
Do they?
Relatedly, it wasn’t an uncommon belief that some animals could just pop into existence under the right circumstances. Like mice and bats in caves or discarded fabric, respectively. “Whatever, their spawn conditions are abundant.” Like mobs in an MMO
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they have the concept Great chain of being. angels/demons at the top of the chain, men above woman, above animals.
Philosoraptor survives the ages with the hard questions.
Because they were also having loud sex without being married
God was also pissed off at all those gay plants and animals out there doing disgusting same-phylum marriages and stuff.
The animals know what they did.
(Sex outside of marriage, of course.)
And don’t forget, he’s got unlimited power and can do anything.
He could have killed only the wicked humans, just snapping them out of existence Thanos-style. But nah. He felt like doing it in a way that would painfully kill trillions of innocent animals as well.
what kind of sick fuck creates a species knowing it will have to ‘punish’ innocent versions of them?
What kind of sick fuck knowingly creates a world where not only baby rape exists but he knows the intimate details of every baby rape before he even instantiates the reality of it?
My parents
Don’t forget the unborn fetuses.
God - highest abortion count in all of history.
Plenty of babies and young children as well. But those were wicked babies who deserved to die, right?
They don’t count. Pro-life stops at birth.
Republicans would have livestreamed it.
Genocidal psychopath does genocidal psychopath things.
For real, Yahweh is a psychopathic demon who eventually won the PR wars thousands of years ago.
That tracks. You just made me interested in Christianity again after trying to avoid everything to do with it for the last few decades, due to having it rammed down my throat for my entire childhood. I like this new lore.
God is an ugly drunk. Some of his benders last for centuries.
Cause they havent accepted Jesus as their lord and savior from what Jesus is going to do to them if they don’t accept him as their lord and savior
That’s pretty harsh considering Jesus hadn’t even been born yet.
