- cross-posted to:
- communism@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- communism@lemmy.ml
Crossposted from https://lemmy.world/post/40642280
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Once upon a time, this “political extremism“ used to just simply be called “being a decent human being“. How far we’ve fallen.
Well keep in mind some of these freedoms the far right has been whining about for a couple decades is literally someone suggesting they not be an intolerant racist homo/transphobe, and that some people should feel comfortable with saying “Happy Holidays” because not everyone celebrates Xmas.
used to just simply be called “being a decent human being“. How far we’ve fallen.
What specific moment in the past are you idolizing here?
When in human history years has it been more acceptable to be any random marginalized group than it is today?
Did you read the post?
Where is the past being misrepresented, or even just being represented?
“How far we’ve fallen” implies it was once much much better.
Red Scare propaganda, and its fundamental essence now entrenched across society, is largely to blame for decency and empathy becoming demonized as extremist.
Simply acknowledging historical antecedents is not whitewashing or idealizing the past.
i see the far left terrorists didn’t make the list
surprising
accepting of all religions
I’m not if said religion involves “removal of rights to others” and “dismantling democracy”. And no, I don’t care if they’re “not real christians”.
“Ive no problem with the spiritual beliefs of all these fuckers while those beliefs dont impact the on happiness of others” - Tim Minchin (the pope song)
The thought of other people living a good life. I just… I can’t. It’s just too horrible.
Yes, I raised my son to be a far left extremist. He’s nearly 30 and strong enough to cause havoc against a fascist regime.
I am not sorry.
All of mine are grown and doing good things too.
Oh noes!
Every item on the list, I have.
I must be one of those dangerous violent extremists the TV warns us about! :O
The woke mind virus claims another victim. Truly tragic to see so much empathy.
…when their propaganda talking points started unironically referencing “the sin of empathy” they crossed the line into balls-out cartoon fascism…
You and your Auntie Fa!
Since they put hammer and sickle (the symbol of communism ) I would argue the acceptance of sexual orientations, religions, genders, races etc was also a problem there. It is liberalism that accepts it.
The claim about everyone being treated equally is also not completely true. I mean, in theory, yes, in practice whenever communism (especialy the one exported from USSR) was implemented some people were “more equal” than others.
Yeah. I supposed that is the joke of it. The image is actually describing is someone a tad left of center.
Actual leftism extremists have nothing but excuses for the human right violations.
It’s an essential requirement for being an extremist. The moment one recognizes they’re doing it and voices the concern, they are violently ejected from the movement.
You are describing a small minority of self-styled leftists who largely are terminally online.
Those doing the real work, such as practicing mutual aid or organizing tenants unions, are not generally defending historic atrocities.
The point of the post is that the window of mainstream discourse has shifted so far right that even basic human empathy has become controversial.
There’s a reason why they are referred as tankies. They supported using tanks on people during Hungarian uprising.
Ironically MAGA fascists are very similar, because the real goal they are after is authoritarianism.
But what you’re describing isn’t an extremist, just an activist.
I am describing actual leftists.
Yes but not actual extremists.
Leftists are derided as extremist.
What do you understand as the meaning of the post?
I would argue the acceptance of sexual orientations, religions, genders, races etc was also a problem there
Cuba reformed its constitution in 2019 to boost queer rights, and in July approved that people can change their gender legally just by personal request.
Sure, some socialist states of the last century were backwards in that regard, like the USSR, but you gotta keep in mind that in 1930 80% of the country were literally uneducated peasants who worked the land with their own hands.
It only took a century and the death of the supreme leader.
The reality is that communist countries have historically been very conservative in their social policies, and most of them are still today. Even former communist countries are, generally speaking, more conservative as a whole than their more democratic neighbors.
Arguably the USSR’s hammer and sickle has been appropriated to represent communism in general and even socialism sometimes
Yeah, and those who use that symbol don’t understand the pain and suffering, because they never lived under such regime or they support them, because they are really after authoritarianism.
I recommend book Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin by prof. Timothy Snyder to give clue how many victims both Communism and Nazism claimed.
Not my left.
Love how the ‘warning signs’ are basically: empathy, equality, and reading books. If that’s ‘extremism,’ we’re in trouble.
thatsthejoke
“Oh no, my child wants dignity for all! Better send them to Guantanashwitz”
Random parent having a child with a soul, circa 2030
Well…the people the right call leftist extremists are generally not leftists are have a tenuous leftist label.
Like…(modern) anarchists are generally apolitical or nihilists…and don’t come from the left at the rates they think they do. The Charlie Kirk shooter is a decent example of what somebody will say is this monolith of leftist extremism that exist in large numbers and is a cohesive group.
Short story long: those who use the label “leftist extremist” (without irony) are basically making a boogy man out of random crazies who they don’t have to ignore because they’re not clearly right wingers.
This isn’t the 70s…they don’t have The Weather Underground and The Black Panthers to scapegoat…so they just make shit up.
anarchists are nearly absolutely leftist. i dont know what youre on about.
Unless he is referring to anarcocapitalists.
anarcocapitalists
An odd form of anarchy that still requires the state to enforce property rights.
Capitalists that don’t believe in narcos?
Or “a narco capitalist”.
fair :) but they werent.
Is that just another name for libertarians?
Maybe. I don’t really know if it’s 100% the same but…
I agree…and It’s why I put modern in brackets…then defined my terms. Don’t stop reading after the thing you disagree with.
Actual anarchists are rare. The people we call anarchists aren’t anarchists….they’re a mishmash of hoodlums, nihilists, anti-fascists, Nazi agitators, etc.
i read the whole thing. the opening line of the second paragraph is just so declarative that it was hard to discern what you meant by any of this. I dont agree that modern anarchists are generally apolitical or nihilists, thats all.
Again…I agree with you.
But I defined my terms…and I’m also correct…because I’m the one who framed the comment. You can be confused…but you can’t disagree lol
I’ll further define them/clarify. I’m not talking about actual anarchists…which don’t exist for the purposes of what I’m saying. I’m talking about anarchists as defined by Donald Trump, for example. The people he’s talking about aren’t actual leftist anarchists…they the Neo Nazi agitators, or the hoodlums that pollute leftist protests etc. They’re the guys from Fight Club. Capiche?
if you werent talking about actual anarchists, then you could have been clear in saying as much. anyway, good day.
The very first thing I said was “the people who the right call anarchists”.
This was a very Reddit-like exchange. Nostalgia.
then you started a new paragraph, making a declarative statement, contradicting the position you meant to convey.
Are you talking about the definition of no rules and pure chaos associated with misfits and punks? Back in the 80s there was a whole genre of anarchist music that exemplified actual anarchistic political ideology. There was always a vein of actual anarchists around if looked around a bit.
I was there…I’ve always “caucused” with anarchists.
I’m not talking about actual anarchists…I’m talking about the people who the right label as anarchists…ie the people who don’t know what anarchy is and think it’s chaos and destruction and nihilism.
Ah, I find that most people I encounter can’t define socialism or communism. That’s a problem. We need a robust education system to encourage curiosity on subjects we aren’t familiar with.
The best way to recruit conservatives is to cut education.
Being a leftist is antithetical to being accepting of all religions.
the horror!
None of these things is the reason why communism is extremist and horrible. But you probably knew that.
When have workers ever controlled production, with such control being horrible for workers?
I cannot know about “horrible”, but at least many control-seizing attempts ended up bickering about who actually gets to control things. Anarchists vs Communists in Catalania for instance.
I’m guessing you’re not defining large-scale attempts at Communism like early Communist China and Soviet Union as worker paradises. Those experiments clearly led to worker suffering though.
Devil is in the details, a lot of seemingly conflicting things can work badly or they can work well depending on how well things are run day-to-day. And then there’s the problem that even if you start with a good system, you also have to maintain that system every day to the future or things will slowly (or sometimes rapidly) start going to shit. Some worker-controlled workplaces are good places to work, I’m sure, and some privately owned enterprises are as well.
Regardless, communist society would be one in which production is controlled directly by workers.
You forgot “unconditionally supports russian imperialism and repeats its propaganda incessently” … wait, this isn’t lemmy.ml 🫠
That prompts an interesting question: Is there a symbol for international communism that’s recognizable to the general public?
Besides the hamsickle and its unfortunate connotations, there’s the red flag and, if we count them in the same group, the various bits of symbolism anarchists use.
The hammer and sickle, no? The British communist party uses it to this day, at least
The initialism there is more unfortunate than the symbol.
Yeah, I don’t like how it excludes potential allies or how it’s focused on suddenly achieving its end state more than the idea that constructive change is an incremental, continuous process. How about, “Communists and Socialists for Advancement in Moderation?”
They should form an alliance with the Party for Elevating Democratic Objectives
That must be the closest thing. It’s absent on communist/socialist national flags, but most of their dominant parties seem to use it.
I don’t think there is a single one, but there are definitely styles that make you think it. Red themes, tools and machinery, fists in the air, etc.
This one of my favorites for Fully Automated Luxury Gay/Queer Space Communism. I doubt how widely it’s known, though.
Wow, what a… memorable flag. Are these scythes with other scythes as a handle ? doubling as Saturn and its moons ?
Yeah, it’s definitely a reference to the hammer and sickle symbol. I think it’s either the Earth, the Moon and Mars or else non-specific planets and/or moons. I had to zoom in to take a closer look:
Oh, now I see it bigger… Is that Bezos’s cock rocket?
PS,
We never needed rockets.
Follow the tech arc from Michael Faraday through to Nikola Tesla, passing by at least the Sonora Aero Club (and Charles Dellschau’s 1850 drawings) and the german bell and foo-fighters, and you shall see… we never needed rockets. What wonders developed since. Zero inertia propulsion, zero-point energy, can print another of itself instantly, safe enough for a 2 year old to fly home safely in, able to sustain human life indefinitely… but sure, lets keep pretending like space is hard to do, and that rockets are the best we can do it by. XD
Like the raised fist, that would be sucked up by the fascists in a split second.
Good point. That North American dictator has been working on it for a while
I’ve literally never seen someone from lemmy.ml unconditionally support Russia. Stop making things up.
Hiya Flying. It’s a joke with a grain of truth. Some vocal (and often well spoken) voices there see russia as a lesser evil than the US and its allies, but imho they go overboard and would rather see and forgive/justify/support russian aggression and its deadly consequences than seek peaceful paths to a more just world.
Also because Russia is now a semi-fascist far right state, as much as the US, if not worse. No idea how it happened that both self proclaimed communists and far right governments will fight and die for Putin.
Maybe the extremists are not those who support human rights, but those who support authoritarianism, from both sides of the spectrum.
You just might be right there. The road to hell and all that.
Otoh, we are living in a world where the rich and powerful have extraordinary influence over our lives through asymmetric application of power, technology and knowledge… we are just pawns/players in systems, and if a system fails us, we might not have any recourse. It’s one reason I value the ability to “vote with my feet” (thanks to international agreements and norms, plus my extraordinary good luck of having a strong passport, decent education and supportive family). If you are stuck in a shitty system, your options might be limited and your readiness to accept extremism and its risks will likely be higher.
I’m sure some commenters on the .ml crosspost will have pointed that out 😉
(Just took a look - of course people who say that Stalinism was bad will get downvoted, same same)
Nobody should be lectured on propaganda by North American and European social democrats who infest Lemmy and spread propaganda to a much higher degree across most instances and communities.
It is clear that russian propaganda is the best propaganda. pats you on the head
Calling out hypocrisy is not the same as supporting the alternative. Two things can be wrong at the same time.
To put it in simple terms: Russian Imperial propaganda is bad but American Imperial neoliberal propaganda isn’t any better just because they are at odds.
The whole “stones thrown from glass houses” thing.
Correct, you understood my point perfectly.
As an anti-imperialist, I get that kind of rebuttal A LOT. People cannot stand it when you bring light that all empires of the modern day got to their heights by being the most politically and socially manipulative parasites this world has ever seen.
Name today’s empires please
US, UK, France, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Russia, China, etc… any and all nations which exert extensive global influence through economic, military, or political power.
Are you just ignorant of how the global north has, for the last centuries, been exploiting the global south? Are you ignorant of neocolonial economic dynamics that Nordic countries exploit to fuel their capitalist social democracy? Are you just ignorant of the fact many African nations still have to pay colonial taxes to France? Just because they stopped officially attributing the label of “empire” to themselves doesn’t mean they stopped being Imperialist nations. They still all heavily benefit from their colonial past, the only thing that changed was the labels and structures to be less direct so they can claim the benefit of the doubt.
social democrats
They have a better claim to leftism & socialism than the illiberal leftists & left-wing authoritarians who manifest inherently unequal, oppressive concentrations of authority & political power.
who manifest inherently unequal, oppressive concentrations of authority & political power.
Capitalism! (Which socdems completely support)
That’s a weird spelling for authoritarianism.
Social democrats support mixed economies with social safety nets.
Economic indexes show liberal democracies in Europe, Canada, East Asia, Australia including social democracies beat communist states (North Korea, China, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba) in lower economic inequality in terms of wealth & income. North Korea comes close, and that state overspends on military instead of lifting people out of poverty, thus allowing famines & food shortages to stunt growth & shorten life expectances by 12 years compared to their South Korean neighbors.
Both in principle & practice, non-authoritarian or liberal leftism beats left-wing authoritarianism. Left-wing authoritarianism is a bankrupt contradiction lacking legitimate claims to the central tenet of leftism of promoting equality. Such philosophies & governments don’t serve the people, they serve an exclusive, repressive regime of political party elites.
Capitalism is authoritarianism.
Not even close: political systems (governance of people & their actions) aren’t economic system (goods & services), and authoritarianism is a political system.
Not even arguing about capitalism: left-wing authoritarianism is still everything I wrote regardless of capitalism. Those liberal democracies I mentioned still in principle limit authority of governments unlike those regimes whose shitty philosophies lack any such scruples: authoritarian philosophies authorize unlimited government power to repress universal rights & liberties. A non-exhaustive list of authorized abuses: the Soviets had their great purges; the Chinese communist party punishes generals for refusing to mass murder civilians, suppresses discussion of times they’ve sent tanks against civilians, persecutes the Uyghurs & Falun Gong, & represses the freedoms of its LGBT+ population to express themselves & form establishments on- & off-line to meet. These actions aren’t backslides from their philosophy.
When liberal democratic governments commit human rights abuses, their philosophy at least recognizes them as illegitimate backslides from that philosophy, and on recovery the people may freely try to hold their governments accountable as they freely condemn such injustices.
However, let’s appreciate the hypocrisy of your position. You’re posting your criticism of capitalism on a online system created in the free world, and you’re benefitting from the freedom to express yourself respected by your government, likely a liberal democracy with some form of mixed economy that includes capitalism. No government authority is shutting you down. We couldn’t safely claim the same if you criticized your government’s economic system from a state run by a left-wing authoritarian regime.
Even supposing capitalism is authoritarian in some way, it’s not the government. Left-wing authoritarianism purports to fight oppression by becoming (causing and perpetuating) oppression. Left-wing authoritarians replace their economic elites with political elites only unlike before, these elites can now run wild with unrestricted government authority to terrorize the masses: they claim that’s progress.
Economics and politics are inseparable.
The great lie of liberalism is that a population may be free even while deprived.
At best, your argument rests on a shifting of the goalposts to construct a pretend purity.
Found the lib
Removed by mod
European Social Democrats spreading propaganda? I’ve seen a lot of europeans talking about how life in central / northern europe differs from what happens in other parts of the world, but i wouldn’t call that propaganda, just sharing experience. And it’s only that you read more of us because the .ml instances and hexbear are the most defederated sites outside of instances with illegal content.
Oh, in your history books the Soviet Union does still exist. Tell me more!
You missed the joke, I guess.
edit: No need to downvote the guy
It looks like it still exists for Lavrov too
The new regime has taken over, just like with Stalin after Lenin.
There is no more satire.
Not far from sad, sad reality. Almost indistinguishable.
