- cross-posted to:
- fuck_ai@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- fuck_ai@lemmy.world
Twonks | Bluesky
Transcript
TW😶NKS
A comic in four panels:
Panel 1. White text on black
AI Design Logic
Panel 2. A guy sits in a restaurant at a table with a checkered table cloth. A waiter stands near, hands behind back waiting attentively.
Guy: Get me a cheese pizza
Panel 3. The waiter returns with a pizza in hand.
Panel 4. The guy gestures proudly at the pizza. The waiter looks less than amused.
Guy: Wow, look what I made!
How is this different from what anybody who hires or employs people do?
the best part is that the waiter stole it from another restaurant
I mean I get the point, but people will actually say “I made pizza for dinner” when they just heated up a frozen pizza which is the same.
Do they? Because when this come up what I usually hear is more apologetic - something along the lines of “oh, I didn’t actually make it”. They certainly won’t try to defend it when pushed.
I take pride in my cooking
I would say “I reheated a pizza” if I lowered myself to doing that
When I say that I make something, I made it from scratch
And AI would hand you a salad calling it a pizza.
It reminds me of what painters said about photography early on. While they toiled for hundreds of hours to paint a realistic image a dude with a box and zero skill beyond maybe some chemistry could snap an even more realistic image. Photography was not considered art for a very long time by the formal art community.
Your analogy doesn’t work. Anyone could take a photograph, just like anyone could paint something, but making it art, eliciting a human reaction, requires skill.
And by the way, not every moment in history when a technological breakthrough threatened a well established craft, can or should be compared to the current state of AI, if anything because it paints a picture where anyone opposing change is some sort of luddite. “Change” is not always a good thing, and there are more than a handful of inconvenient examples: atomic vs conventional weapons, cigarettes vs herbal treatments for anxiety, leaded vs unleaded gasoline for increased engine performance, glass and paper vs plastic in food containers, etc. For each one, incessant marketing campaigns were launched, touting their advantages and how they would improve the world as we knew it. World Expos were organized around these things. People were legitimately excited.
The truth wasn’t quite that. The US found itself in a tight spot when they lost the monopoly on nuclear weapons, which triggered a histeria across the country that lasted for decades, and even nowadays, “nuclear deterrence” conditions geopolitics to the maximum degree. Cigarettes, turned out, weren’t as good to calm nerves as they were killing people. Leaded gasoline, which was the answer given by refineries to the question “what if we stop improving refining processes and start adding literal poison as an additive”. And microplastics are the latest in all the ways humans have found to screw the food chain.
Not every art piece is even physical or tangible in any sense. The art is in the conception or the idea. There is indeed a skill in constructing models as well as using them but ignoring all of that there’s still the artistic touch in creating thought provoking or impassioned concepts irrespective of the tangible form they’ve been given. Although one can most definitely use a medium to impart meaning.
It was never my argument that people who have issues with new technology are necessarily luddites or that AI or really any technology whatsoever is absolutely problem free. Everything has its pros and cons, for example nuclear gave us access to functionally limitless clean (compared to coal and gas) energy as well as more powerful weapons. One unavoidable rule or law of reality is we don’t get something for nothing.
Ultimately what is and is not art was, is, and will be an open question each individual has to answer for themselves. Even today an individual is free to view photography not as a legitimate art form or digital art or CGI and so on.
There is indeed a skill in constructing models as well as using them but ignoring all of that there’s still the artistic touch in creating thought provoking or impassioned concepts irrespective of the tangible form they’ve been given.
We weren’t talking about constructing models. And where’s the skill in “using” them in this context, when the user is eventually given the exact end product they asked for, and it is as original as rehashing the training set can be?
Everything has its pros and cons, for example nuclear gave us access to functionally limitless much cleaner energy as well as more powerful weapons
I see that you went with the nuclear example, because all of the others seem straight up indefensible in comparison.
Problem is, I wasn’t talking about nuclear energy. Even if I did, development of nuclear energy didn’t require creating nuclear weapons at all. Yet they did, and it’s a great example of how technological achievements aren’t always a good thing.
AI slop is AI slop, but if you compare it to a film director explaining to a concept artist or director of photography what he wants, then selecting and refining examples and concept art and sketching out a storyboard, there is little difference to someone using AI to make some film. Just that the latter will typically be much worse because anyone can do it now, they won’t have studied film making, and AI isn’t very good at it so far. But either can be art, or it can be garbage.
Also with advances in hardware and better tools and software and models, we could see a new type of art form or medium. Something like the holodeck in star trek. Like a movie that is more interactive, like a role playing session in VR. Told to you by a narrator but you can interject and steer or derail the narrative. So the “directors” become more like world builders or campaign designers.
The sheer endless tsunami of this dreck makes it meaningless.
I’m not sure more people having more access means things are now worse. Like more people have more means to create art today than 500 years ago and yeah there’s a lot of uninspired or derivative content but also there’s a lot more legitimate artists making passionate and thought provoking work.
Yeah I imagine what you’re saying will come to pass although I think it’ll look more like parlor walls from Fahrenheit 451 for the majority. I think my main issue is when a human is totally uninvolved in the process. So far it seems pretty noticeable when there’s someone with an actual idea they’re trying to create vs there’s no mind behind it.
Haha love the reference to Fahrenheit 451. There is also a good illustration in the horror story from _9MOTHER9HORSE9EYES9 with people sinking into some kind of experience stream, similar to wireheading. Or in “Systema Delenda Est” about postbiological life there is the concept of “Elysium” virtual worlds where people go in and never want to come out again, because they live in a narrative that is always perfect for them. Instead of slop you have perfection that is irresistible. Star Trek had Barkley becoming holo-addicted. Cheese Pizza is really bad for you too lol.
You could argue that something like computer games the story is ultimately told by the player and his decisions and actions, and the world should just react. There is a fundamental limit to storytelling in computer games, which only tabletop role playing games solve with an intelligent narrator or game master. I do think LLMs can fill that role but not very well. But better than what open world games offer today. Not better than a well written movie.
I think ultimately the will or mind should be unbounded sans the ability to willfully cause harm to other minds. It’s purely due to limitations of technology that we are in our current predicament. The famous prosthetic engineer Hugh Herr made the argument it was not him who was disabled but our technology that was disabled. Now what minds do when they are unbounded by the reality around them is their own responsibility. If you’ve seen the show pantheon then things could turn out similarly aka minds in multiple embodiments exploring physical and simulated realities or otherwise experiencing whatever they desire without limitations beyond the limitation of willfully causing harm to others.
Ideally minds unchained from limitations wouldn’t desire to cause harm anyways, but there’s some real jerks out there.
That is a good argument.
It’s more so historical fact. It was denounced for like nearly a century if not longer depending how you’re measuring. It’s similar to AI in that it decreases the mechanical effort one needs to create content but also itself imposes new required skills to develop that content. There’s definitely a hierarchy in AI content and so far at least to myself it’s very clear when there is a person actively trying to create something vs a completely automated content pipeline. I would challenge anyone who thinks all AI creations are nothing but slop to create something themselves equal to or better than some of the better works I’ve seen. Similar to a challenge of a traditional painter to create a compelling photographic composition.
Maybe to add to this I think it’s worth noting the creative demand of designing and training a model. It’s not without inspired thought. I’m curious to see the code as well. Amongst people who program there can most definitely be beautiful and ugly code in the same way there can be a pleasing or unpleasant movie scene or painting.
It’s similar to AI in that it decreases the mechanical effort one needs to create content
I get that you mean this from the perspective of the user, but you can’t ignore they are fixing to restart disused nuclear power plants to sustain the required computational power and the datacenters creating drinkingwater supply problems left and right.
Photography never had anywhere near the societarial cost that AI has.
I would challenge anyone who thinks all AI creations are nothing but slop to create something themselves equal to or better than some of the better works I’ve seen. Similar to a challenge of a traditional painter to create a compelling photographic composition.
There’ll always be a massive difference to me looking at something that comes from a logic machine and something that comes from a human. It’s not always about details and graphical fidelity. It’s why I have my 4 year old niece’s doodles on my fridge, instead of asking an AI to improve them and hang those instead.
I think we’re having two discussions. There is the discussion about whether or not media created using a neural network with a human prompting it can be considered art. Hypothetically an individual could design, train, and prompt a NN including creating the dataset themselves it was trained on. Would that also be discredited just for the fact part of their process used a NN? What if one also used all clean carbon neutral energy to run and train their NN?
The other discussion is about the issues surrounding people’s current choices on how to develop neural networks. I guess you could link them together and say because of these issues anything created using these tools is not art. It would beg the hypothetical of if it would be art if these issues were not there.
But the pizza was stolen from the store down the street
Family recipe
Somebody on the other app said that Cheese Pizza stands for CP and the AI thing becomes even more accurate
Yeah I was surprised no other comments here picked that up, I thought that had to be on purpose.
Removed by mod
The sad part it did try… and wasted electricity and water
Obviously never used AI. How it really goes is that you ask for a cheese pizza and after you spend hours and a bunch of money on tokens, you get an onion and peanut butter pizza with no cheese and you go, “Fuck it. Close enough.”
You forgot the part where they steal the pizzas from other parlors to sell them as thier own.
All that while using enough resources to create tons of pizzas
Cheese Pizza
Then FBI strums in
Rich people think this way for everything
And because of that, unfortnately, a lot of regular people also think the entire point of technology and wealth is to never have to do anything substantive.
That’s one of the core injustices of capitalism.
Rich person says “Build a thing”
Workers design, research, and build the thing.
Rich person keeps the profits.
Reminds me of when I heard someone talk about a recent experience when they “built houses”. I thought that sounded unlikely, as I could not picture this person wearing a toolbelt and hardhat and actually swinging a hammer. I asked for clarification, and they explained how they managed a construction company or something, and that in English, saying “I build houses” covers the management side as well, not just the people actually doing the building.
It’s not that hard to say they’re a manager, they just wanted to feel included
As someone who has actually physically built houses (i.e. nailing walls together, putting up the siding, hanging and mudding sheetrock, installing doors and windows etc.) this mindset pisses me off more than anything. “Management” does stuff like buying already-built houses, trucking them to our site and placing them on foundations, discovering the houses were built in the 1960s with 2x3s instead of 2x4s and thus needed to be torn down to the floors because they’re no longer up to code, necessitating us rebuilding the houses entirely from the floors up, and then discovering the houses were placed two feet too close to the property line so we have to literally chop two feet off of them and rebuild the walls.
True fucking story. And I forgot to mention that the floors were 3/4 rotten so we had to rebuild most of them, too.
2x3s instead of 2x4s
How about building houses the right way like in the EU: Out of cellular concrete
deleted by creator
“The Life and Times of Thomas Edison”
…or swallows the loss.
The laid off workers also suffer the loss, typically.
Furthermore, I don’t think “he gambled” compellingly makes this system fair or good.
The laid off workers also suffer the loss
Or benefits when they got employed. Point is, that you aren’t rising much with just working. You earn your wage whether the owner did right or wrong decision. Unlike them you don’t have to bear the risk of losing your savings
The owner also gets a wage and benefits while the process is running.
And much of the time, they’re spending VC money. Minimal personal risk.
And even so, that doesn’t justify the owner keeping almost all of the proceeds. I don’t care if they put their life savings into it. Labor built it.
Wage paid out of your own money to youself isn’t a benefit.
VC funding.
Also why are you so invested in defending capitalists?
That’s why they don’t see any problem with replacing workers with AI. They think AI will do X better than humans do just like machines could build X better than humans could at the beginning of the industrial revolution.
But the cost benefit analysis often proves to be quite the opposite in the long-term, despite deceptive short-term gains. But a short-term gains seem to be all that businesses seem to care about.
It’s how our finance systems evolved to be, no one got time to wait for long term gains anymore. It’s all about playing the hot potato.
They like AI because it doesn’t provide feedback about their ideas being less than perfect.
You’re absolutely right!
And here’s the thing
You’re not crazy!
on a slight tangent: that’s why I tend to prefer Claude (when I have to use AI), because it does actually provide push-back and doesn’t get all kiss-ass with me like ChatGPT

you know, i’ve tried to defend some usage in the past, explaining my processes and the many steps of manual refinement, masking, and layerwork i put in to things, how i only run local models with open weights, how all my power comes from hydro etc etc
but as the tools keep evolving i’ve realised nobody else seems to actually care about the process. the pro-people just want as much slop as possible. someone likened it to a slot machine, where you keep pulling just because. that’s where we are now.
I fully get where you’re coming from. I fully believe that you can’t vibe code correctly unless you already know how to code correctly. I’m against the shifting paradigm of “who cares what the code looks like aa long as it works properly and the LLM can read it quickly” bullshit that’s coming out of it. I want to read the code and understand it too. I want it to be object oriented and not just dumb ad hoc methods everywhere that’s 1,000 lines when it could’ve been 100 lines.
Now anecdotally, as someone who uses it for my main work and side project, I am still getting a lot of use out of it. I’m learning new things at a faster rate than I would have before. For my side project, I am trying to optimize gear sets for a game and there’s hundreds of millions of different configurations. The LLM I’m using knows about my code and the project and what I need and is able to suggest other algorithms, like I was able to learn about Dinkelbach’s algorithm. I have it write up design docs with formulas and pseudocode implementation and I review that and it takes my comments into account. I treat it like a junior developer and ask for questions to make sure I understand what it’s doing. I think a lot of people aren’t treating it like a junior developer or intern and that’s where problems come from.
Now, I wouldn’t be using it if it wasn’t free with my company, as this is more of “learning/research” for my job.
And for my job, we have semantic memory and a ton of MCP servers setup that guide it through the right code and can do internal documentation search so it’s way more powerful than just using base Claude Code or whatever. It has helped me stay more on track with my projects as an ADHD person (even though I’m medicated) by documenting what it does after it does it in a shared doc rather than me forgetting to do that because I run a command and log off for the day or something.
I do hate the water usage and energy usage though…
Same, but you forgot, the massive stealing of intellectual property that no government fights against because they are scared to be left behind by big tech, the impact on learning (especially students), and the impact on little hands that had to moderate the NSFL content.
i refuse to use ml models for code. the copyright issues alone should be enough to keep them away from every public code base until the matter is settled. but also because local tooling is, frankly, shit. i have a bit of hope for text diffusion models, but i have a hard time seeing the situation improving because everyote is full in on cloud models now.
Imagine if you put that much time into a useful skill.
i do. i experiment with transformer and diffusion models like a few hours a month, tops. the result isn’t interesting enough. the process of bending and breaking the models is the fun part.
Sounds like it’s a very rewarding hobby lol.
yeah, it’s a great way to see the limitations of these systems. just like ctf and ioccc.
I was being sarcastic, man. That sounds like a tremendous waste of time.
i will always take the time to explain things i find interesting to people. the benefit here is that i can now much more efficiently break large models as well when i come across them. helps me add anti-ai clauses to websites, cv’s, and repos i publish.
Thanks for taking one for the team then, I guess!
This, but you don’t get a pizza, you get a wheel of iron, colored in brown with glue on top of it.
Eyes should have stayed the same imo… robots ;)
AI would bring you a big cheese wheel with salami on it, and temu Ratatouille in the background, in the wrong scale. Because that shit is DUMB!
“Give me a cheese pizza in the style of a famous italian restaurant pizza kitchen. Use lots of cheese, tomato sauce, and bread. Cook it in an oven at a very high temperature. The cheese should be hot to the touch. The crust should be thin when the cooking is complete and have a few tiny black spots on it to show that it is crispy. Put the pizza on a metal tray and deliver it to my table within the next thirty minutes. Make no mistakes.”
You forgot to specify Italian DOP cheese, now you have a pizza oozing with shitty Kraft/Lactalis pseudo-cheese.
This is why no one wants to go to Altoona.
Also you’ll get framed for murder there
Receives pizza
“Why is it covered with pineapple?!?”















