Trust me when I say this: none of the right-wing media/politicians, will understand that they’ve made any points on behalf of the protestors by blurring the “men’s” nipples.
Also, saying men can go around topless but not women, is sexist. Any such law should be removed. We should all be equal in the eyes of the law. With that said: that shouldn’t imply that women should go around topless. It should just be legally allowed. I’m a guy, but I don’t think I need to explain to anyone the potential complications from going around topless as a woman… Whether trans or not.
The whole situation is dumb. Society needs to do better. We’re all people. Let’s keep that in mind and treat everyone the same, based on the fact that they are a human person in society. No legal separation of sex, gender, race, religion, or anything else. If you are a human person, you should have the same rights and freedoms as every other human person.
The law cannot treat everyone the same while also allowing companies to address historical discrimination against women by setting gender quotas in hiring.
Allowing those quotas to then be filled by Trans women is not consistent with addressing discrimination against women.
The only solution then is to remove all protections for women.
This is why feminists do not accept narcissist attention seeking bad faith actors (see photo) into their fold. They don’t care that they harm others Trans women, they don’t care that they harm women, they only care about themselves.
I’m a guy, but I don’t think I need to explain to anyone the potential complications from going around topless as a woman… Whether trans or not.
It’s normal and fairly mundane for men to go topless in virtually all societies, however, there are a good number of cultures where it is also normal for women to be topless. If it is normal and mundane for women to be topless, then it becomes a non-issue eventually. It’s only racy because we’re trained in our culture to find it racy.
True, however we are also trained to be everything. Literally whole law, moral system and everything about human society is subjective and made up. Should we pursue to deconstruct this subjectivity? No it is what allows us to function. However we should pursue equality in an egalitarian sense of every member of society.
Our subjective and made up rules should be equal for all members of the society and where they cannot be because they meet biological objectivity there they need to be humane and in best interest of the person in light of law so that the person can live with dignity and possess full autonomy unless judged to be stripped away from such
In the late 90s or early aughts here in Canada women challenged and won the right to go topless as well as men. I can’t recall seeing in person any women exercising that right myself, and it won’t surprise me if the religions conservatives here have managed to overturn that directly or indirectly, but as a teenager/young adult i thought it was cool at the time that Canada fixed that inequality
Didn’t really have a point here just felt like sharing
OH! Finally! A chance to use my knowledge acquired from scrolling wikipedia while procrastinating! That law hasn’t been overturned and is still, well, law. Of course every once in a while some clueless cop (because why should somebody enforcing the law, know the law sigh) will ask a topless sunbather to cover up. Here’s the article.
Is it illegal for women to be topless?
Yeah. That seems sexist.
Free the nipple.
Genuine question, how is it sexist? Is their no acknowledgment of biological differences between men and women as a general rule (trans issues being more of an exception to the rule)? We acknowledge differences in general in regards to sports, bathrooms, fitting rooms, the way clothes are made, people’s consumption of pornography, magazines and media. Why on this point are we ignoring that all of those things ls are real and happen and pretending there’s no difference?
Men and women both have nipples. The difference is that women might need to pull them put to feed a baby. If we want to treat them differently, should it not be reversed?
The only reason to cover women’s nipples is because the gender in power may have hormonal changes that they are unwilling to control.
I’m sorry I’m not following. What’s the “gender in power?” Is that societal or the individual?
The patriarchy
Because the sexualization of the female nipple is the only reason it is illegal to bare it in public. There is no universal or biological reason to ban it, just a cultural conditioning.
Yes, I guess what I’m asking is are we pretending that this “conditioning” isn’t a real thing? I also read recently (sorry if this is wrong) that there was a study done on arousal of breasts between societies where they are covered up vs where they are not. It found the level of arousal remained consistent.
Yes, I guess what I’m asking is are we pretending that this “conditioning” isn’t a real thing? I also read recently (sorry if this is wrong) that there was a study done on arousal of breasts between societies where they are covered up vs where they are not. It found the level of arousal remained consistent.
Why wouldn’t having to deal with that arousal be the problem and responsibility of the aroused instead of, by default and preemtively, limiting the rights of any prospective and involuntary “arousee” in existence?
Why should a nipple be hidden only if it is a female one. Why would man have the right to walk without t-shirts and woman be punished for the same walk?
Yet imo it should be the other way. Males need to cover up to. Lets see how fast they start complaining.
I think there’s less of a need for men to cover up. That not to say I don’t agree with your point entirely. While shirtless men do seem to arouse women and gay men, correct me if if wrong, it’s seems like it’s more of a overall thing, where with women the arousal is mostly centred around the breasts themselves and the nipples.
I think it’s also more appropriate to say feminine breasts, I know this opinion can vary person to person but most people can agree man boobs generally don’t excite people, it’s the muscle and tone that women find attractive. This can apply to feminine breasts but I think it’s generally more accepted that they are more likely to arouse or at least be interesting.
There are differences, but there is no need for different rules.
Can you, or are you willing to, say outright, why it should be illegal?
Because I think having breasts is different to not having them and that human arousal and disgust (may be a strong word) is real and that as a general rule it’s appropriate and even beneficial to exclude the extremes of these things from day to day life unless the individual wants to opt in. I suppose a line has to be drawn somewhere and given that there is a real reaction across most of society it’s a reasonable place to draw it.
Katy Montgomerie a really good interview with one of the women at the protest: https://youtu.be/wbA0q0eqYnM
A living edge case. I love it.
I guess the only solution is to free the nipple
Took me a while to even notice they are censored, and not just weird looking
Fucking Genius
It would have been icing on the cake if trans men would have been in the same protest, also topless, but they weren’t censored lol
yeah, but they could have been arrested
To many in alt right groups, trans men don’t exist.
How do you mean?
Whenever there is an issue with anything relating to genders it’s always about trans women, not trans men.
They talk about trans women in women’s bathrooms, but never trans men in men’s bathroom. If they wanted your original gender, then you’d have trans men in women’s bathrooms. Basically someone that looks like a guy in the women’s bathroom.
They talk about trans women dominating women’s sports, even though there are literally none. But what about a sport where being a women, i.e. smaller and more flexible, is a benefit. Something like gymnastics.
Women are also on average a better shot, yet we don’t see discussions around trans men dominating gun or bow related sports.
There are many other examples, but generally the right always tries to attack trans women. It has to do with macho “manosphere” and equating anything less manly as a weak liberal thing.
Maybe there is another side to this toxic macho “manosphere” you mention.
After all, as a baseline men are by nature predisposed and culturally conditioned to protect and be considerate to women.
Despite all lamentation, Chivalry is not dead for some.
So obviously the sanctity of a woman’s restroom is more highly valued than that of a men’s bathroom. After all, women are more vulnerable and more often targeted in that way.
So the debate tends to skew towards women spaces, as those are more likely to cause public discord if disturbed.
Rarely are men stepping up on the soap crate to defend their own spaces. Because after all, they are strong enough to take any number of “inconveniences” and disadvantages because to admit to struggling with them would be weakness.
I’m not saying it’s fair, or right, or how it should be. But maybe that bias isn’t always driven by hostility. Maybe it’s just that society still places more weight on protecting women, while expecting men to grit their teeth and deal with it. Even when those same men help reinforce that standard among themselves.
It doesn’t make the imbalance okay, and it doesn’t mean the outrage is consistent. But it might explain why all the noise gets focused on trans women. It’s not just transphobia, it’s the scaffolding of gender roles, still quietly deciding who gets defended, and who’s expected to tough it out.
It seems absurd to conceptualize a “chivalrous transphobe”. But we are all more than just one label.
I agree, had thought of that before - it’s cognitive dissonance along the lines of “do I protect this person (who appears to be a woman but I’m not certain) or not (because they might not be)?” If society moved more to a model of ‘help people who need help’ it might improve matters.
I don’t really agree, because these people will absolutely defend their fragile “man” places. The manosphere is not something I just made up. It’s a complex network of influencers and media types. It’s why we have people such as Joe Rogan and Andrew Tate leading a generation of young men. It’s a gross perversion of what the right calls “being a real man”. It’s been discussed by phycologists and experts on men’s mental health. You should read up on it, but I warn you it’s a deep rabbit hole that may just piss you off how interconnected it is and supported by fascist authoritarians.
I mean, cis dudes would work in that context too, no?
Not if the point is to make the government acknowledge their gender.
I cannot imagine being a cop in this country the laws are just totally arbitrary and you’d have to enforce them even though they make zero sense.
It gets even mader. If you take one step over the border into England, being topless suddenly becomes legal regardless of gender or birth sex.
however it is not an offence for a man or a woman to be topless in England and Wales, so long as the person has not taken off their clothes with the intention of shocking or upsetting others.
There is even a special ordinances for Newcastle that say that the moment the temperature exceeds 12°C taking your top off becomes mandatory.
Am Newcastle. Can confirm.
Malicious compliance at its best.
Damn, these people are bold as fuck. Get it!
Legendary behavior. Bigots can choke on it
A lot of them do.
Duh and or hola
I haven’t thought about that gag from that show in a while. Thanks for posting this, was nice to be reminded of it
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a brilliant catch-22 situation.
not catch 22
SOMETIMES A CHECKMATE IS JUST SO FUCKING POETIC.
Butters: weiners out!
For real, this is such a great move. Oh sure, the government could just ban nipples in general, but good luck enforcing that when it gets mildly warm and every scottish man rips their shirt off
is that the “red wave” they’ve been warning us about?
TAPS AFF
Nips oot.
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You too. It’s fun.
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Brother the fact you use those terms indicates you are an insecure pos. Can bet my last pound you wouldn’t talk to me like that to my face, just because I’ve got empathy for days doesn’t mean I’m above putting a bigot on the ground.
Be better my guy, if only for the sake of your mental health. Hatred is a killer and will just drag you down.
If you ever want to chat civilly about anything hmu, I got you. I believe people can change if given some compassion and actually interact with the people you hate.
Lol, you know it! I moved to a purple pearl in a very deeply red State. I’m gigantic so I can get away with saying what I want. Some little college aged typical Rogan bro tried going into the typical litter box bullshit. I pulled up the actual story, and eventually asked him how many trans people he interacted with regularly knowing one was in that very bar. And he damn sure didn’t raise his voice when I showed him how dumb all his bullshit was. These people are scared and weak without a screen in between them and the world.
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In America most men are overweight or obese and have pendulous lumps on their chests with nipples attached. Personally I don’t love seeing them, but when the weather is right, they are all over the goddamn place. It’s absolutely ludicrous that women can’t do the same. If there were any logical rule it would be don’t show your chesticles unless you are a woman who uses them for feeding a child OR everybody gets to have their tits out regardless of any gender types. Pick one and go with it, but the current laws are base AF.
In other parts of the world nudity isn’t seen as a big deal or in some cases even unusual in certain settings. Americans are so afraid of seeing a titty or penis or whatever else.
I mean in some parts it’s not as big a deal yes. There are plenty of parts where it is like this. I think America is a good example primarily because so many American men have tits.
When I was in pre-K, on a really hot day, I remember asking why the boys got to take off their shirts but I couldn’t.
Now that I’ve had top surgery, I can be the fat hairy bearded guy that mows lawns shirtless. It’s nice.
I mow with a long sleeve that’s rated for 15fpf, skin cancer is a real concern. Stay safe out there fam
The safety vs comfort rivalry
I’m happy for you that it worked out in the end.
Sure, but it’s a ridiculous privilege. Let’s face it, many men have what meets the criteria for breasts. If we decide that breasts are outside of the Overton window then shirt those removed up, all of them. If we are saying breasts on women are the only breasts outside the window then that’s just plain old discrimination. Shift the window or cover them all up until we are ready to let them all out.
Austin actually has a city ordinance with more or less this exact logic. Once you’ve seen a dozen or so average women with their chests uncovered at the pool, it loses any excitement it may have initially held.
Here in Fort Collins, it’s tits out for all. Come all and welcome for those that would like their tits out.
Isn’t it technically legal there for women to be topless, too?
Edit: a bit dated, but it seems that they can go topless only in a few state.
Everyone can choose to have their tits out!
My kind of party!
Another example of the Scots fighting for freedom … they’ve been doing it successfully for thousands of years and they’re still doing it!
I will never in my life ever understand the fight against gay, lesbian, bi, queer, LGBTQ+
They are a fraction of the population yet the majority causes them immeasurable harm simply because they exist. The louder they persecute, the more prominent LGBTQ+ movement becomes … it’s contradictory. If conservatives had just left them alone, there would almost be no issue about any of this at all.
There are far more important debates and fights to be had in our society … namely the fight to preserve the survivability of our species in the coming centuries … yet here we are fighting about who gets to show or not show their tits!!!
I will never in my life ever understand the fight against gay, lesbian, bi, queer, LGBTQ+
One argument is that any (fictional) male can just put on a wig and a dress and enter any “women designated” area.
The people making this argument are usually men and rarely has an actual incident occurred.
(This opinion is based on trying to give Graham Linehan a benefit of doubt)
Conservatives need a demographic to hate. This one is perfect because they will never be Conservatives, and most hardcore Conservatives can’t stand to see homosexual PDA.
they will never be Conservatives
I wish that were true, but I have family that is deeply conservative and so is her wife.
Same. I used to work with a lesbian who was a born-again Christian who thinks gay people shouldn’t kiss or hold hands in public becuase it could indoctrinate children (she literally used the word indoctrinate when talking about this with me). They do exist.
If they let up on hating an outside groups for a moment, people might notice that they have no policies that anyone wants.
I just had a look at the global demographics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation
Those identifying as a different sexual identity from heterosexuality averages less than 10% of the overall population … it could be argued that LGBTQ+ people who are stigmatized would be less likely to report their actual identities in these surveys … but in progressive countries like Canada, Australia and most developed European countries who are supposedly more progressive and open still show a minority of the population identifying as such.
It will forever be a stupid reason to fight over identity of any gender or identity in anyone … especially at this point in our history when so much more should be more important to all of us … we’re facing an existential crisis right now as a species and instead we are spending a lot of time and energy debating our sexual morals and preferences?
Disgust is a powerful motivator and influencer. It’s an evolutionary survival trait we’re wired to feel it easily and pick up on others felling it. Eww, this ham is awful. Everyone does a double-take, and many will perceive it as bad and consider throwing it out simply because someone else’s judgment passed it as nasty.
It’s VERY easy to get many to feel disgust against something simply by pointing at it and saying it’s disgusting. You point out a few things and make a face, neanderthal brain says you know they’re likely onto something.
As an exhibitionist:
:) i know.
There’s nothing to understand. It’s about hate and fear. Conservatives, specifically the alt-right, uses pre-existing prejudices to whip fear into their followers so that they get distracted.
“If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”
You can change this to whatever out-group they have chosen:
- Trans-people
- autistic people specifically
- LGBT people
- neurodivergent people
- gay people specifically
- muslims
- non-white people
- black people specifically
- Catholics (if you’re protestant)
- Protestant (if your Catholic)
- left handed people
The list literally goes on. All so that their followers get distracted from the people who are picking their pockets.
As far as I’m concerned, the only minority group of people we should all actively persecute is the ultra wealthy class of people who represent a small fraction of the global population yet control overwhelmingly all the wealth in our civilization. They would rather watch the world burn than in allowing anyone to create any kind of equitable society to share even a fraction of the wealth in our world.
Class warfare >>>>> Culture warfare
and people who use your and you’re interchangeably… right?
When gay marriage was being debated here in Australia my sister (who is gay) was super upset the whole time. She talked about how much the fight affected her and wished that people who were against would just understand.
I told her I was a complete supporter of gay marriage for a whole bunch of reasons including:
- human decency
- equality
- people who don’t like gay marriage can just… Not get married to another person of the same gender.
- people should just mind their own fucking business
However I did also point out that a lot of the loudest voices against gay marriage literally did not give a flying fuck about the issue, it was a convenient wedge and distraction for them, the people who need a group to vilify for political reasons would have to find another target for persecution as soon as they lost this particular convenient red rag to a bull.
Today in Australia, I believe, the usual suspects who use fear and hatred as the bedrock of their politics have been able to tap into a deeper vein of ignorance to make Trans people that target.
that whole time was fucked… our lgbt community experienced drastically higher suicide rates, mental health support services were begging for temporary volunteers to help with the load
and then tony fucking abbot - whose electorate voted the highest yes in the country - abstained from voting
One of the reasons LGBTQ+ people get so much hate is because of male insecurity and the global crisis increasing feelings of helplessness and despair.
It’s also got to do with the haters projecting the things they deny themselves (to be manly or whatever) onto LGBTQ+ persons - and then hating them for allegedly having those freedoms.
Nothing is wrong with being LGBTQ+. It’s the people who hate them for not fitting their norm who need help.
Lol it’s because when you start digging in intellectually/philosophically, it starts raising some pretty serious questions about the state of society and free will and rights and autonomy and capitalism and slavery copyrights and gender and biology and religion and stuff.
We, quite literally, are their antichrist.
🤘🔥🔥🤘 This is why trans people are metal af
it’s because it’s not a fraction of the population… it’s all of us. it’s a threat to one’s own identity to hear someone challenge the little delusional box we place ourselves in
