Fuck them both.
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good
Thanks for the post. I got so many tankies blocked
It’s beyond me how after seeing the past years of overt Zionist propaganda denying genocide in most western media, anyone here is still willing to listen to western media on international affairs. Like, haven’t you seen them take the mask off already? How are you trusting BBC’s reporting on China?
China isn’t as successful at imperialism as the Americans. The American ruling class is just… Too good at being evil.
Doesn’t mean that China and Russia aren’t imperialist though. They’re just unable to beat the US… For now…
China and Russia are taking over in the soft imperialism department, because some billionaire moron had to kill USAID. Let’s hope their soft imperialism won’t have really bad consequences human rights-wise (though the US also had a spotty record with that).
Looking at human rights in russia… doesn’t look too good, chief, not gonna lie. At least China pretends for the media.
China: persues peaceful reunification with Taiwan
The West: “LOOK!!! THEY’RE LIKE US! WORSE THAN US!!!” invades nation illegally
Okay, buddy.
China: Doesn’t even consider Taiwan’s right exist and is forcing their unification with aggressive military incursions in their territory.
Tankie like you: ALL WEST BAD, ONLY CHINA GOOD AND EVERY VALID CRITICISM IS WESTERN PROPAGANDA.
Okay, buddy.
“ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME MUST BE A TANKIE!!!”
I’m not a Tankie, and you can check through my entire comment history to easily confirm that. I just can’t help but notice that people have been saying “China is about to attack Taiwan any day now” for years and it never comes. Maybe they’re just not as bad as us?
Peaceful?
“”““peaceful””“” with a country that wants independence.
“”“a country”“” here meaning about 5% of the people in a country.
US imperialism has set a dictatorship in my country that lasted 21 years, killed and tortured people in the most horrible ways and led to unimaginable inflation, while Chinese imperialism here has been decreasing donkey population by buying them and making a tea that makes you more masculine supposedly.
Well, China also is actively committing a genocide against their Muslim minority and invaded Tibet
Well, China also is actively committing a genocide against their Muslim minority
Source?
guessing brazil?
Westerners feel that way when the propaganda/ideology is threatened. They also often have issues not thinking in all or nothing terms, so they need these dichotomies.
Seeing from the heavily upvoted comments removed by the mods, this ain’t changing anytime soon, lol.
What a shallow thought process you have.
I literally said this to a tankie on here once, and they responded “Yes, unironically.”
Edit: I’m sorry, I said “totalitarianism”. Not better.
Actually worse
They’re right
At the moment Chinese propaganda is working in a far superior way than murican propaganda, so yes, I agree with the me me.
Shhhhhh You’re scaring .ml
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Looks like CIA didn’t approve of the copy pasta
This goes okayish to “we didn’t start the fire”
That’s fucking hilarious
The title of the next hit light novel.
The Alternian Trolls from Homestuck prepared me for this reality
Doesn’t count if you don’t give me a five page essay on each.
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Oh, don’t pass the buck with that “just read the book” BS. Summarize the book please.
America bad.
Is that a book?
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Oh that’ll be a problem, I can’t read. So books are a no go.
Removed by mod
Audiobooks are not hard to find
This but unironically? lol the US is bad. do china next!
But I think most MLs would assume everyone already knows this and would instead want to argue about whether the bad things china does are actually “imperialist,” technically.
IDK maybe this is an accurate depiction of some kind of rabid sinophile…I haven’t had the joy of meeting any.
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Joke went way over my head; thanks for the context!
I had a stroke and died
Sad there is no mention of warm water ports
Or warm water sports
That looks like emacs spook output
That is the joke, yes.
LOL yup
China doesn’t even imperialize as hard as America. They have this slow thing on taiwan and some of the nearby countries but they’re not going to like Iran and bombing the shit out of it
This is probably unpopular, but Taiwan is imo not a good example of imperialism. Taiwan is where the old government has fled to and where the government there officially still claims to be the rightful goverment of China. Their official name is republic of China, which obviously leads to tensions with the “people’s republic of China”.
Imperialism is when a nation excercises significant influence and control over other independent nations. Taiwan is not an independent nation, they are a rival/competitor with similar regional claims.
A better example of Chinese imperialism could be their economic initiatives in Africa.
Or their occupation of Tibet and East Turkestan
I mean, they did invade Tibet with ground forces and eventually bomb the shit out of them, kidnapped tons of children and killed their parents. Between 10k in the first three days (the tiny tiny tibet army was very overwhelmed) and their government estimates 1.2million tibetens were killed then and during the 220k Chinese soldier occupation, but the actual number is likely more around 87k to 150k, with the remaining number being imprisoned in slave labor camps and the children kidnapped to grow up as “real Chinese” children. Like the indeginous schools in the US and Canada. Things got so bad that according to the PRC’s own reports, over 70% of rural PRC members defected and fought for the rebels. Skeletons clogged the Yellow River one year apparently. But as typical with all imperialism whether western or eastern, the winners try to explain the deaths away as famine when the soldiers steal all of the crops and shoot out the legs of the people, but they “technically” die of starvation or disease.
Then they came and cut all of their old growth lumber (maybe the real end goal?) with massive deforestation and resource harvesting.
But it is no question that China’s current imperialism is economic for 90% of it. It is also by far the lesser of the evils and much much less violent and physically harmful nowadays after 1970 or so.
You had me in the first half
Like I know the world is really shitty, but 50 years ago isn’t that long ago. Especially when we’re taking about forgetting a river of skeletons caused by a war of territorial expansion.
Like I know the world is really shitty, but 50 years ago isn’t that long ago.
Y’all got some very long, very selective grudges. I feel pretty confident in saying that if the US had been at peace since Vietnam, I’d hate it a hell of lot less.
Yo you did the thing.
You’re here proving the meme. Both are imperialism both are evil.
No, they aren’t. One is freeing serfs in a region that’s been part of your country for 200 years and then living peacefully with the world afterwards for the next 70 years and counting. The other is waging campaigns of violence and death, covert and overt, across every continent in the world, overthrowing democratically elected leaders in favor of autocrats who will sell out their country’s resources.
There is absolutely no equivalence whatsoever.
One is freeing serfs in a region that’s been part of your country for 200 years
Is murder and genocide what we call freedom these days?
Anyway take that boot and shove it up your ass until something pops
Is murder
Murder? Of slave owners? Yeah, that is often required for freedom. Do slavers really count as human enough for it to count as murder? Self-defense at worst.
and genocide
What “genocide” would that be?
Anyway take that boot and shove it up your ass until something pops
Right back at you, I’m not the one defending a slaver theocracy.
I guess we don’t count Xinjiang and Tibet because everyone’s already used to them being part of China
Or any other minority in China
But don’t worry, some dutch guy from mom’s basement living on welfare will tell us that it’s not what it looks and it’s actually good for unified diversity of all people
Imperialism only comes from the imperial region of the US, if it’s from China it’s sparkling liberation
The imperial valley is not in the Empire State… where do they grow imperialism?
The People’s Boot!
I guess we don’t count the Confederate States of America because everyone’s already used to them being part of the USA.
I mean if we’re reaching that far back we should probably talk about all the states that used to be independent now a part of China. Let’s just say that unification wasn’t a peaceful proccess and involved a healthy amount of geneocide.
Me when whataboutism
Yet another example of how “whataboutism” just means, “trying to apply consistent standards and definitions instead of favoring Western countries.”
We all know that is not because they lack the will.
“Both sides bad” vibes projected onto geopolitics.
If Israel treated Palestine like China treats the Uyghurs then Kamala would be president.
Here in Australia they took Aboriginal children away from their parents and put them on missions. They called them orphans while their parents were alive and trying to get them back. The missionaries would beat the children, rape them, force them to work, forbid them from speaking their language, send them outside in July without a jumper, send them to bed at 18 on bare mattresses without a sheet. If you’ve ever wondered why there are so many Indigenous people of mixed descent here in Australia, that’s your answer.
The government justified it all by saying the missions were “educating” the children.
If these Chinese education camps are anything like the Australian ones…
If these Chinese education camps are anything like the Australian ones…
This is the wildest thing about propaganda, it’s always like, “If [thing] was so bad here, imagine how bad it must be in [place]!” No need to even involve facts or evidence, just use your imagination and let your preconcieved assumptions about other countries run wild.
This is where the real currency of propaganda is framing. With the right framing, every flaw and every crime committed by the West can be twisted around to cast shade on its enemies.
Hey hey hey you can’t just compare the two!
That would be like comparing the amount of incarcerated people the US has to China and considering the populations.
The wildest part to me was the international / immigrant nurse who was shocked that in the US we care enough about the mentally ill to bother putting them in prison. She was like “back home if they don’t have family that’s willing to take care of them we just physically throw and/or kick them out of the city and let them wander off and die.”
oh god. Another one of these. I’ll bite. How is China imperialist? Bonus points if you don’t mention Uyghurs because that’s not imperialism and the zenz/ US propaganda has been widely debunked.
I’ll bite too. I live in the Philippines. I’m too stressed to even think about how impossibly cheap Chinese imports have displaced local industries. Walmart style.
We have a long mostly harmless history with local Chinese entrepreneurs, but I’m talking about CCP-sponsored conglomerates and drug, gambling, and troll farms planted just around metros.
It’s mostly soft power and undercover for now, but if the US isn’t looking, we’d be Belarus to Russia.
Sike it’s not all softpower, we have the fucking South China Sea.
US imperialism: we bombed the fuck out of your country and enslaved your people installing a fascist dictatorship and supported it for 30 years
Chinese “imperialism”: oh no, consumer goods are too cheap!
Lol missed the point. If other powers aren’t watching, they’d do the same. For now they “only” do these (on top of my head):
- debt traps
- economic imperialism
- install mass murdering/genocidal politicians and spies
- kill unarmed fishermen and get away with it
- ram our coast guard boats with their navy ships
- smuggle drugs and human trafficking, then cast death penalty only to the coerced deliveryman
- the thing with AI data centers in the USA, but replace AI with illegal online gambling. Oh, and promote gambming addicition, of course
You know, things that won’t catch international attention but slowly but surely are fucking us up
debt traps
China literally has a well established history of debt forgiving, you’re projecting what the western IMF actually does.
economic imperialism
China’s trade balance is net positive towards exports by like $1tn yearly? It’s literally not extracting the resources from anyone else, you’re literally making this up, projection again
install mass murdering/genocidal politicians and spies
More projection. Suharto in your neighbor’s nation was propped up by the US, he was the one mass-murdering communists in Indonesia.
kill unarmed fishermen and get away with it
More projection, the US was doing this recently against Venezuelan fishermen, literally fucking bombing people. You’re falling for US propaganda.
ram our coast guard boats with their navy ships
Oh no, a sovereign nation doesn’t want its seas to be blockaded by US-aligned forces!
smuggle drugs and human trafficking
Again projection, the ones with the opium plantations in Afghanistan were the US, there’s no evidence of any such systematic acts by China, drugs are extremely prohibited in China.
the thing with AI data centers in the USA, but replace AI with illegal online gambling. Oh, and promote gambming addicition, of course
Not aware of this, but again, you’re literally spelling out the name of the nation whose imperialism you’re projecting.
You’ve been propagandized against China when it was literally the US maintaining a military dictatorship in your neighboring fucking country killing a million communists!!
Have you ever heard of Tibet?
Have you ever asked Tibetan people what they believe? There is literally not any significant Tibet independence movement within China, Tibet is its own autonomous region in China with special rights and higher autonomy than most other provinces, and the culture, religion and language are respected.
Hong Kong? Taiwan?
China has been acting like shit in Hong Kong, but it was originally Chinese territory. So I wouldn’t count that as imperialism.
China’s behavior in the South China Sea is a much better example.
Hong Kong, the place leased to Britain (probably unfairly/forcibly given British history) and subsequently returned to China at the end of the lease?
Edit-addendum: Also isn’t Taiwan still functionally sovereign? It was just the remnants of China’s old government pre-CPC. They’ve moved closer, voluntarily, to the PRC in recent years, especially with all the recent western aggression in the world in general.
Taiwan? You mean the city where all the landlords fled from Mao’s revolution and have been propped up by western imperialists powers ever since?
Literal definition of “no true Scotsman”
If you think what China does to Muslims is bad you should see what Taiwan was like before China invaded. Seriously look up how they treated their criminals.
That has no bearing on whether their actions were that of an imperialist.
It’s wild that you think that China committing genocide is somehow a defense to literally anything.
You sound like people claiming the US invaded Afghanistan to save the women
Whataboutism
Yes? Yes?
How are y’all still upset that your little slave-owning, theocratic warlord state got liberatated 70 years ago?
The excuse of every imperialist. Even using the word “liberated”. Yellow man’s burden?
Damn, that’s racist. Can’t help yourself but call them yellow, can you?
It’s not imperialist to liberate your own country from serfdom or slavery. Would you look at the northern states in the US liberating the slaves in the south and accuse people who supported that of “White Man’s Burden” shit? What a load of racist bullshit and slavery apologia. The fuck is wrong with you?
Are you seriously trying to pretend to be a leftist while defending serfdom and calling Asians yellow?
liberate your own country
Tibet was not China’s “own country”. It was imperialistically annexed.
That’s completely false.
Tibet was part of China since at least the 18th century. After the fall of the Qing, countless little warlord states sprung up all over China, including Tibet. For some reason, some Westerners decided that one of those warlord states was legitimate. Don’t know why you never talk about all the other ones.
I say some Westerners, because the only state that ever actually recognized Tibet as independent was Mongolia. The US fully supported Chinese claims over Tibet before the communists won, and never recognized it as independent even afterwards, nor has any other country. Even Taiwan claims, and has always claimed, Tibet as a part of China.
But you don’t know shit about that. You saw a slogan saying “Free Tibet!” and latched onto it with zero knowledge of the actual history, because it sounded nice and China Bad (those “yellows!”)
I’ll tell you what doesn’t sound so nice: Being forced to work to death and dying at 30. Which is exactly how things were in Tibet before the revolution reached their region. Under Communist leadership, the government poured resources into it and other poor remote regions and doubled the life expectancy. By any objective metric, quality of life greatly improved in Tibet once people were liberated from living in serfdom under, again, a literal theocracy.
By contrast, Texas had only been part of the US for 16 years when they tried to secede to maintain their system of slavery. Not that it really matters, but 16 years is a hell of lot flimsier than 200 years in terms of sovereignty. What does really matter is the absolutely deplorable, unforgivable conditions that the lamas (like the Confederate slavers) kept the people in, which again, you don’t know shit about, because you didn’t do your goddamn homework.
This is what you’re defending in your ignorance.
Hey it’s OBJECTION being up voted by their own alt accounts again! What a loser lol
Lol, sure buddy.
Yes?
How is China Imperialist
12 dash line, Belt and road is just neo-colonialism debt traps and soft power grabs, consistent threats to the sovereignty of Bhutan, Taiwan, the Phillipines and more. Financial and material aid to both sides of the conflict in Myanmar, weapon sales to Russia for use in Ukraine, etc.
You’re either incredibly dishonest or incredibly fucking stupid
They’re tankies… They’re both.
Anything’s possible when you make shit up kiddo
Oh a tankie! It can write! Now draw shapes tankie. Fuckwad.
If selling weapons is bad, I’ve got some news for you about the US you might want to sit down for . . .
It’s like you forgot to read the question they’re answering.
Question: how is China imperialist like USA
Answer: here is how China is imperialist like USA
You: yeah, well USA does it too!
Imperialism is selling weapons? That’s Lenin, right?
Dude calm down
“Widely debunked” is a funny way to say “I really like to downplay this”, but excluding the active genocide, China is actively yoinking and creating islands, debt trapping countries, etc
creating islands
This is the funniest imperialism accusation yet.
Reeducation, or even whatever label you want to put on what China is doing with Uyghur Muslims is NOT genocide and not even close. And this post is about imperialism, not genocide, and genocide IS happening to Muslim countries with the direct support of almost every western country. Debt trapping which countries? Taiwan? Snatching up islands? Wtf are you talking about?
Definition:
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Reeducation camps are an effort to destroy Uighur culture and are absolutely a genocide. At least 4 of those 5 conditions are met. You don’t need gas chambers or mass extermination, that’s just one way genocide can manifest.
Detainees had no privacy. They were monitored at all times, including when they ate, slept, and used the toilet. They were forbidden to talk freely with other detainees. When detainees were permitted to speak – to other detainees, guards, or teachers – they were required to speak in Mandarin Chinese, a language many of them, especially older people and those from more rural areas in Xinjiang, did not speak or understand. Detainees were physically punished if they spoke in a language other than Mandarin.
There was insufficient food, water, exercise, healthcare, sanitary and hygienic conditions, fresh air, and exposure to natural light. Detainees had draconian restrictions placed on their ability to urinate and defecate. All detainees were required to “work” one- or two-hour shifts monitoring their cellmates every night. Many former detainees reported that during the first few days, weeks, or sometimes months after arriving at the internment camps, they were forced to do nothing but sit still – often in terribly uncomfortable positions – for nearly the entire day.
At some point after arriving nearly all detainees were subjected to highly regimented classes. The typical schedule included three or four hours of classes after breakfast. Then detainees had lunch and a short “rest”, which often involved sitting still on a stool or with their heads still on their desks. After lunch there was another three or four hours of classes and then dinner, followed by a few hours to sit or kneel on a stool and silently “review” the day’s material or to watch more “educational” videos. At nearly all times during classes, detainees were required to look straight ahead and not to speak with their classmates. Classes often involved memorizing and reciting “red” songs – that is, revolutionary songs that praise the CCP and the People’s Republic of China.
Source I highly recommend downloading and reading the whole report.
On December 9, 2021, the Tribunal delivered its judgment. In its judgment, the Tribunal established the following facts. Hundreds of thousands to over one million were arbitrarily detained and exposed to cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment. Testimony described overcrowded cells, sometimes holding around 50 detainees in roughly 22 square meters (or 237 square feet), with little space to lie down. Detainees used buckets as toilets, monitored by Closed-Circuit Television (CCTV), with no privacy.10
Detainees were tortured without any legitimate reasons. Witnesses identified a range of torture practices, such as fingernail removal, beatings, extended immobilization in “tiger chairs,” immersion in cold water, and confinement in cages too small to stand or lie down. Multiple testimonies described long-term heavy shackles and restraints, in some cases lasting for months.11
Widespread sexual violence occurred, affecting both male and female detainees. One account described the gang rape of a young woman, about 20 or 21, in front of roughly 100 other detainees forced to watch. Female detainees faced sexual assaults with electric devices and metal rods. Some were raped by people who paid for access to detention facilities. Witnesses reported severe food deprivation (sometimes withheld as a punitive measure), solitary confinement in dark or always-lit cells, long-term sleep deprivation, and humiliation.12
Deaths were linked to abuses in detention. Testimony indicated that younger detainees were occasionally taken from cells and subsequently disappeared. However, there is no evidence of systematic mass killings. In fact, many detainees were eventually released. Some were released after three to six months, others after years of imprisonment or repeated torture, though often only to be detained again.13
Witnesses described various forms of nonphysical mistreatment, including mandatory political indoctrination where detainees were required to sing pro-CCP songs under threat of punishment. Detainees were given unidentified pills or injections, sometimes causing reproductive or psychological changes. Witnesses described unexplained blood draws and medical procedures. Testimonies included coerced abortions with some late terms, and claims of newborns killed after delivery.14
You don’t get to be against one genocide and not another. Stop being a piece of shit shill and do some research.
Good luck convincing tankies with that definition. They will just claim the definition doesn’t count because “the UN is a Western imperialist facade pushing US propaganda.” The same goes for any source that doesn’t agree with their ideals, for that matter.
You can literally go to xianxang today and talk to Uyghur Muslims. If that’s genocide yall don’t wanna hear about black people in USA… You’re all fuckin insane lol
If I were a zionist, I’d definitely use this sort of argument when talking about Palestinians. Lol you can go to West Bank and talk to them, therefore there’s no genocide.
Yeah if you don’t mind getting your head blown off you can.
Get a job
No, comparing what’s happening in the West Bank to fucking China is laughable and you know it. It’s disingenuous at best and at worst you’re willfully lying by comparing a real genocide to fucking Uyghurs. Try walking into Gaza like that.
Debt trapping, for example, laos.
Still a lot better than what the USA does - better to build out country’s infrastructure and then hold them ransom with the debt than bombing schools, but it doesn’t make them good or beyond criticism.
bait = grabbed lol
Apparently. Summoned a storm of lib bots. Lol
“People don’t agree with me? Must be bots, since I’m obviously never wrong.”
Na bro, you just haven’t considered the fact that America bad, everyone knows that
I unironically think that America is bad. I just don’t have better opinions about China.
dawg some of these replies straight up don’t make sense
But “yes” does?
Depends on the definition. In Lenin’s Imperialism, the highest form of capitalism, he defines five criteria:
And so, without forgetting the conditional and relative value of all definitions in general, which can never embrace all the concatenations of a phenomenon in its complete development, we must give a definition of imperialism that will include the following five of its basic features:
-
the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life;
-
the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital,” of a financial oligarchy;
-
the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance;
-
the formation of international monopolist capitalist combines which share the world among themselves, and
-
the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed.
1 and 2 apply with some caveats, 3 and 4 are a yes (WTO, UN, BRICS, etc), and 5 should be seen through a soft-power neo colonialist lens with China’s influence in Africa for example.
This is not meant to be anti-China or whatever, anything China has done pales in comparison with US imperialism, just that I don’t think it’s a completely baseless accusation.
I believe China tries to somehow argue its not imperialistic, its multipolar, which honestly is just a spit in the face.
(A very good critique of multipolarism from a far, far far left source can be found here: https://spectrejournal.com/against-multipolar-imperialism/)
What isn’t a baseless accusation, are you talking about Taiwan? Or Tibet?
Anyone following the thread can see that the “accusation” being referred to is China being imperialist.
-
How is China imperialist?
It helps if you insist the natural state of Chinese territory is a balkinized patchwork of ethnic enclaves fighting border wars “Romance of the Three Kingdoms” style, and the amalgamation of territory over 3000 years of dynastic rule gets dumped on the head of the current government.
Bonus points if you don’t mention Uyghurs
Uyghurs are the only Muslim group that the NAFO crowd are allowed to empathize with. And only when they’re local to the Tarim Basin. God help you if you’re a Uyghur living in Europe or Southeast Asia or the United States because they’re not welcome.
the zenz/ US propaganda
Mentioning the name of Adrian Zenz, the history of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation (and where it gets its money), or any choice passages from the book Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation marks you out as a Wumao Far-Left Ultra-Stalinist Botfarm with cooties and a stupid face.
Chickenshit mods
What
